Fury as AfD politician urges Germany to 'stop remembering Nazi crimes'

[Wells]

Like Islam? Cause like some moderator here keeps saying, you cant blame the ideology, just the people who overdo it :P
@Endus can probably set you straight on this

Why should there be a difference about how we treat followers of Islam and followers of Nationalism/socialism?

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I sure hope Americans say sorry to every native they meet for stealing their land and murdering their people too then.

You think comparing all of Islam to Nazism is a smart take?

[Thage]

Its important to remember who Bjorn Hocke is and who the AfD are before commenting.

This. Hocke takes so much issue with it because it's easier to push a neo-fascist agenda when the results of fascism aren't fresh in everyone's minds. He's getting mad that Germany remembers what happened the last time a guy like him took advantage of desperate, scared people with their backs to the wall and would rather look into alternative solutions than run back into the waiting grasp of an aspiring dictator.

[May90]

What, they are ideas that shape the life's of people who choose or are incorporate into the system of said ideologies. And to some extent control every aspect of your life

National socialism as an abstract ideology does not lead to violence, much like Islam as a religion does not lead to violence. Trying to impose the values of national socialism, Islam or any other totalitarian system of values - does. But national socialism is worse than just being totalitarian, it also promotes an idea that some people are inherently better than others and nothing can change that - here is your recipe for disaster.

[Wells]

All of Islam? I am saying that if you cant blame a religion for religious nutcases as was stated here by moderators, how can you blame
national socialism for the radicals of that movement?

Yes. Because Islam is a whole bunch of ideologies. Nazism is nazism.

[Kuntantee]

National socialism as an abstract ideology does not lead to violence, much like Islam as a religion does not lead to violence. Trying to impose the values of national socialism, Islam or any other totalitarian system of values - does. But national socialism is worse than just being totalitarian, it also promotes an idea that some people are inherently better than others and nothing can change that - here is your recipe for disaster.

How do you define national socialism (the official doctrine of Nazi Party)?

[Deleted]

Actually nationalsocialism is a jump platform from which the more extreme forms like Blood&Soil,

Those two are just a rational outgrowth of nationalism and German historical context.

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The Nazi ideology has nothing to do with Socialism. They are different things.

Nazism (fascism) is a derivation of socialism, Its Protestantism to Catholicism.

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National socialism as an abstract ideology does not lead to violence, much like Islam as a religion does not lead to violence. Trying to impose the values of national socialism, Islam or any other totalitarian system of values - does. But national socialism is worse than just being totalitarian, it also promotes an idea that some people are inherently better than others and nothing can change that - here is your recipe for disaster.

There is nothing inherently supremacist about nationalism, although it is a common implication obviously.

[May90]

And religions don't do that? Heretics and all? Better yet, what about the gay people that are being thrown of roofs?

Are you, like, incapable of understanding the distinction between a religion, and a theocracy?

[JohnBrown1917]

Are you, like, incapable of understanding the distinction between a religion, and a theocracy?

Its always hard to argue with those who defend Nazis.

[JohnBrown1917]

Why? Do you lose most of the time comrade? And where do I defend them?

Feel free to play dumb.

[May90]

What is your point really? Are you saying there are no theocratic governments in the world? And why make a distinction when they work in the same way?

If you don't see the distinction between this



and this



, then, I guess, you won't be able to understand the point.

[Baelic]

This reeks of people wanting to forget history... Guess what happens when you do?

[Kraenen]

Are you, like, incapable of understanding the distinction between a religion, and a theocracy?

Religion in the case of the three monotheisms provide good basis for theocracies right in the books, and, as you mentioned, their cultural histories.

Even the very notion that God (our god, not yours!) rules the universe and proclaims what is good and bad, evil and holy - that notion is totalitarian in its nature.

[JohnBrown1917]

Seriously point out where I defended them. Nice avatar btw, one of the ideologies that are responsible for more human suffering than Nazism.

I'll take that infantile reply as a "No, I dont have an argument" then.

Comparing Nazism to be similiar to islam in structure not defending it? In what fairy world?

Oh, and thanks for noticing my avatar, reminds me of the reason I picked it.

[Ravenblade]

Those two are just a rational outgrowth of nationalism and German historical context.

Given the circumstances it can happen again, anywhere, even in Germany. There's already think tanks like the Deutsches Kolleg which are working on a successor ideology and are suspected of intellectually controlling the new rightwing scene in Germany, especially since their leading figures admitted to that their goal is a 4th Reich. Certain figures in politics, ahead of all, Björn Höcke are suspected of being in connection with them. Proofs? Being on their mailing list and supposedly using an alias to write texts for the NPD some years ago. Of course they also admitted he's just being used as a puppet and may disposed once their next milestone has been reached. The ideology isn't dead, it hasn't been defeated and has a growing followership now that politics are dumbfounded on how to counter that.

[Slant]

"Protocols". Whoah, let's not get ahead of ourselves. What you're describing is a too complicated of a mechanism for neo-Nazis. The way this works is just that such concepts go over their heads completely unregistered. Just like blind creatures lack the capacity to register light and act on it.

That is a bit of a sad concept, because it suggests they cannot act otherwise. In my opinion, if their brain is stimulated properly while growing up, they can develop the higher brain functions needed to realise just how fucked the idea of nazism really is. So, while I do not blame them, I absolutely blame their parents.

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Not to mention that there was nothing democratic about how Hitler came to power. In a working democracy, he would likely have rotten in a prison cell, instead of trying to conquer Europe. It is one thing to speak out against letting Muslims and illegal immigrants in; it is completely another about advocating for ethnic cleansings and building a world empire.

Um, Hitler was elected. It was very democratic, by the standards of democracy of those times. Not sure why you're saying that he didn't come into power in a democratic way. He facilitated his absolute power in a slightly off-democratic way, but given that it was all perfectly legal and within the bounds of the constitution, one might argue that that was democratic as well. I'm ignoring the staged burning of the Reichstag here, but I'm sure you'll allow me a bit of glossing over that for the sake of my point.

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Like Islam? Cause like some moderator here keeps saying, you cant blame the ideology, just the people who overdo it :P
@Endus can probably set you straight on this

What people like you don't get, and the reason why people like you have a subscription on infraction points based on this topic is that Islam in itself is not promoting violence as an aggressive act. That extremists abuse it as a propaganda tool means merely that it is a religion that can be abused to impress the feeble minded.

Nazi ideology, however? It's been designed to do what it did from the start. Hitler described the roadmap years and years in advance to him implementing it. For the attentive observer, nothing that Hitler did was a surprise. The whole ideology is centered around conquest, supremacy and eradication of anything that stands in the way. It's not "people overdoing it" that are the problem. It's the whole concept being about overdoing it that is the problem.

That is why there should be a difference.

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National socialism as an abstract ideology does not lead to violence, much like Islam as a religion does not lead to violence. Trying to impose the values of national socialism, Islam or any other totalitarian system of values - does. But national socialism is worse than just being totalitarian, it also promotes an idea that some people are inherently better than others and nothing can change that - here is your recipe for disaster.

National socialism doesn't exist as an abstract ideology. Never did. It was a random name given to the agenda of Hitler. They called it national socialism, because it implied social stuff (always good) for the workers (even better) of German nationality, and only them (and this is the best part). As an abstract construct, that you're referring to, it only implies whatever it is you're deriving from the words. But you can't reverse engineer a foul ideology and then pretend it's not as bad if you substract the Hitleresque flavour from it. Nazi ideology is, quite literally, Hitler. And Hitler, again quite literally, was nazi ideology. Did you not notice everything centering around him? Did the word Führer never make you think? The fanatic devotion to his personal cult?

[JohnBrown1917]

They are both deplorable ideologies, I would not call comparing those two defending any of them.
Maybe it says more about you being more tolerant towards misogynistic Abrahamic cults, but that none of my business. I guess its in prefect sync with the rest of the far-left you apparently are a part of.

Funny how you assume i'm far left becease I disagree with you.


This is a waste of time

[Slant]

They are both deplorable ideologies, I would not call comparing those two defending any of them.
Maybe it says more about you being more tolerant towards misogynistic Abrahamic cults, but that none of my business. I guess its in prefect sync with the rest of the far-left you apparently are a part of.

Misygynistic Abrahamic cult? Did you mean catholicism?

[Deleted]

This is a waste of time

Yeah, discussing with right wing fanatics is really useless. They are not able to learn. They are not able to understand. They only see their own opinion.

[May90]

Religion in the case of the three monotheisms provide good basis for theocracies right in the books, and, as you mentioned, their cultural histories.

Even the very notion that God (our god, not yours!) rules the universe and proclaims what is good and bad, evil and holy - that notion is totalitarian in its nature.

Totalitarian - yes. But not necessarily violent: what's going to happen, the god is going to purge all heretics with his magical powers? However, when a religion becomes an instrument in the hands of the government - then violence is pretty much unavoidable.

It is much worse in case of national socialism, because it is based around the idea that some people are inherently better than others. It isn't the case, for example, in Christianity: while, indeed, in practice it often results in discrimination of certain groups, such as homosexuals or "heretics" - the base idea is that "the god loves all". National socialism is directly opposite.

National socialism doesn't exist as an abstract ideology. Never did. It was a random name given to the agenda of Hitler. They called it national socialism, because it implied social stuff (always good) for the workers (even better) of German nationality, and only them (and this is the best part). As an abstract construct, that you're referring to, it only implies whatever it is you're deriving from the words. But you can't reverse engineer a foul ideology and then pretend it's not as bad if you substract the Hitleresque flavour from it. Nazi ideology is, quite literally, Hitler. And Hitler, again quite literally, was nazi ideology. Did you not notice everything centering around him? Did the word Führer never make you think? The fanatic devotion to his personal cult?

Well, you see, regardless of an ideology, an individual following it does not necessarily have to resort to violence to promote it. Mostly, I guess, because he/she doesn't have the power to achieve anything this way. However, when that ideology is proclaimed official by a powerful centralized government... Well, violence is a logical conclusion.

[Deleted]

We don't think we're evil. We actually think we're pretty firmly the good guys. Hence our offering shelter for refugees, because that's what good guys do. Be helpful to those in need. Some mistake it as compensating for our past, but that's not it, as much as they'd like to believe it. It's really hard to be one of the good guys and watch people starve at your doorstep in cold blood. But, since you probably haven't read the thread, I guess it's easy to make that false assumption despite me and other Germans explaining this over and over again. It's an uphill windmillblowing contest against a rolling stone while some jackass poured oil down the hill.

You say this, but then post this on other threads and completely prove me right:

Bush will be a stain forever. But then, the US has a lot of stains already. One more doesn't really matter. Trust me, I know what I'm speaking about. Our stains are so black, we still get hated on for for pointing out that we know about those stains, please ignore them, we're really good at laundry, but they just won't go away, so we decided to just live with it and paint flowers around them.