It seems that destro needs a buff for raiding

[Deleted]

What? You're saying that a 9% CB damage increase equals a 14-16% overall ST damage increase?

Must be some very special napkin math.

[Deleted]

My point being, I perform better after the patch and still rank highly among equally geared and skilled players. I don't see any destruction problems just because the 1% mythic top raiders don't take tons of them. Their raiding scene is not like mine or I would expect, like a vast majority of the playerbase's.
Are YOU seriously under-performing and being skipped for raids? If not, why buy so hard into the idea that the sky is falling?

Nope. I am the best player in my raid.

I don't compare myself to my guild, because it is stupid if I were to compare my 95th percentile rankings to their 70th percentile rankings. I only compare myself to players of my guild when they have comparable results, which does happen. Don't get me wrong, my guild is not that bad. We are a mythic raiding guild and it does happen that other players pull great rankings, but I do not have the audacity to take isolated fights of my guild, look at the damage meters and make bold statements regarding balance because of it.

I look at the bigger picture, which we thankfully have because of warcraftlogs and compare myself there with players of equal skill who performed, relatively speaking, similar to how I did.

(By the way. This goes both ways. If I perform bad. lets say I only do 250K dps on Krosus and be dead last on damage meters, which would be abysmally low, it would be stupid to make a statement about balance from that fight where I played bad and claiming that Warlocks are bad)

This is why we have warcraftlogs, This is why Destruction warlocks are getting a buff. Destruction warlocks are under-performing right now and it is due to the nature of the specc and not because of players playing badly. All speccs have good and bad players.

The thing is. We all have a skewed perception and subjective opinion, but the truth is that the objective data matters more than isolated cases of "how I see it".
Subjectively you feel like Destruction is great and that is your opinion, which is objectively speaking wrong, but within your own universe, which is your guild, the truth doesn't matter as much, but once you pass the barrier and project something that is objectively wrong onto more knowledgable people it becomes stupidity.

No offense.

TL;DR. all I am saying is people should STOP STOP STOP looking at their guilds and make balance claims based on it. That is so stupid in the age of having a collective of reliable data from all players of the world neatly archived with total transparancy

[Cyclone Duke]

TL;DR. all I am saying is people should STOP STOP STOP looking at their guilds and make balance claims based on it. That is so stupid in the age of having a collective of reliable data from all players of the world neatly archived with total transparancy

What I'm trying to emphasis is - there ARE no balance problems for destro in my situation. I think that the bleeding edge players are simply in another league, another "sport" even entirely, compared to the other 99% of the playerbase.
Sure, I don't doubt that with the numbers represented, destro is underrepresented for Method or other guilds like that. But for 99% of the playerbase, I just can't see it being an issue just because it is for the players who will kick you over a 2% damage difference to another class/spec. Those people just aren't part of my game and the fact is, that regardless of what the spreadsheets report or who method take with them - I am still fighting for the top spot with my peers, and that's the only game I play. I don't play with Method, their dealings are just not relevant to me or my friends. I can only imagine (I think, reasonably) that the majority of players playing are in the same kind of situation I am.

I think that the developers balance the game to a degree, that while the bleeding edge players may see some varied % at their skill level, and have that 2% more damage actually matter to getting world firsts, that the classes are balanced enough that players down beneath that level are far more influenced by personal skill over those small balance differences and should always be welcomed in their raids and guild (unless your guild are dicks).
I don't deny there are class balance issues - I just think their effect is limited to a small portion of the playerbase - or certainly should be limited there, except a lot of the majority of the (uneffected) players just take that isolated case and think it's results apply to all warlocks in all situations.

[HeroicMythic]

@Cyclone Duke, Please stick to the data. Nobody cares for your "special situation" in your "special guild". It's like you living on a hill in a flooded area and saying that you have no problems with water in your situation.

[Deleted]

Yeah, if you're top 3 dps in your guild on every boss in NH your guild has some real problems. You should link some basic tutorial videos to the other players or something.

[Deleted]

What I'm trying to emphasis is - there ARE no balance problems for destro in my situation. I think that the bleeding edge players are simply in another league, another "sport" even entirely, compared to the other 99% of the playerbase.
Sure, I don't doubt that with the numbers represented, destro is underrepresented for Method or other guilds like that. But for 99% of the playerbase, I just can't see it being an issue just because it is for the players who will kick you over a 2% damage difference to another class/spec. Those people just aren't part of my game and the fact is, that regardless of what the spreadsheets report or who method take with them - I am still fighting for the top spot with my peers, and that's the only game I play. I don't play with Method, their dealings are just not relevant to me or my friends. I can only imagine (I think, reasonably) that the majority of players playing are in the same kind of situation I am.

I think that the developers balance the game to a degree, that while the bleeding edge players may see some varied % at their skill level, and have that 2% more damage actually matter to getting world firsts, that the classes are balanced enough that players down beneath that level are far more influenced by personal skill over those small balance differences and should always be welcomed in their raids and guild (unless your guild are dicks).
I don't deny there are class balance issues - I just think their effect is limited to a small portion of the playerbase - or certainly should be limited there, except a lot of the majority of the (uneffected) players just take that isolated case and think it's results apply to all warlocks in all situations.

I stopped reading there.

- - - Updated - - -

@Cyclone Duke, Please stick to the data. Nobody cares for your "special situation" in your "special guild". It's like you living on a hill in a flooded area and saying that you have no problems with water in your situation.

thank you!

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, if you're top 3 dps in your guild on every boss in NH your guild has some real problems. You should link some basic tutorial videos to the other players or something.

thank you. I agree !

[Zally]

Cyclone Duke, If you're doing just fine within your guild that's great. Keep up the good work. But the fact of the matter is that Blizz even put out a blue post saying Destruction numbers aren't high enough. I noticed that I'm under performing compared to what I was doing in EN. After doing some research I found out I'm not the only one suffering from this. I'm being encouraged to go Affy from my guild and, call me stubborn if you want, I simply do not want too. The more I test the more I find out there is not much I can do to up my dps in NH.The facts are there. Look at the beginning post! A damage increase to CB, Cata, RoF isn't going to fix clunky mechanics. Makes me wonder if the person making changes to destro lock actually plays one.

[Cyclone Duke]

@Cyclone Duke, Please stick to the data. Nobody cares for your "special situation" in your "special guild".

The data's the data and data is useful. But saying don't JUST stick to the data surely has merit, and that we should be also taking the realistic facts and experiences that we live and breath in our personal gameplay day to day when we talk about the state of the class.

Again, not ignoring the fact there's numbers issues - but surely you guys are not being removed from your raids, or have sunk to the bottom of your raids dps charts in the last two weeks? I haven't, I'm still hitting the numbers I was before, a bit higher even since 7.1.5. The numbers problem, to whatever degree it is, has not crushed any point for me to keep attending my raids. I'm still doing great, both compared to my own performance beforehand and to my peers.

I don't think the land around me isn't flooded, to cite Heroicmythic. There's rain - but nobody is drowning and when people try to claim that the sky and all it's contents will fall and crush us (or already has) just because there's some rain, is just something I try to help folks to remember to keep perspective on.
Folks get caught up in the pure spreadsheet number crunching, and read about the top guilds not including X and Y - but do you guys, really, personally, and right now, see the sky falling around you from your own experiences and testing, or are you just reading the crunches and basing your reactions on that?

Of course if we are getting a 9% damage increase to CB, that indicates our numbers were lower than they should have been or even still need to be. But do you really think the problem is legit so exaggerated.
"Does destro need a buff for raiding" - yes I think that's clear and obviously Blizz know it themselves at least from the hotfix notes for this week. But the only thing I'm trying to get people on board with, is not to exaggerate it over the top. Every class constantly needs tweaks but every class constantly overstates the case.

[Visyx]

Must be some very special napkin math.

Very special in fact that I forgot to add in my assumption a 0.

So, it really is a .003% increase approximately going off the top parse on Krosus.

Great. Everyone get their pitchforks again.

[clevin]

What I'm trying to emphasis is - there ARE no balance problems for destro in my situation.

Fukcing hell... And YOUR SITUATION does not represent the general case, even of the non-bleeding edge player base.

Seriously, how hard is it to understand that reasoning from the specific to the general is a HUGE FUCKING LOGICAL FAIL? The odds that your guild or any single guild accurately mirrors the player base at large is infinitesimal.

[Amonthar]

Cyclone Duke, If you're doing just fine within your guild that's great. Keep up the good work. But the fact of the matter is that Blizz even put out a blue post saying Destruction numbers aren't high enough. I noticed that I'm under performing compared to what I was doing in EN. After doing some research I found out I'm not the only one suffering from this. I'm being encouraged to go Affy from my guild and, call me stubborn if you want, I simply do not want too. The more I test the more I find out there is not much I can do to up my dps in NH.The facts are there. Look at the beginning post! A damage increase to CB, Cata, RoF isn't going to fix clunky mechanics. Makes me wonder if the person making changes to destro lock actually plays one.

The person making changes does not play one. I think they don't even play a ranged class. They are so stubborn about changing anything that would improve the class mechanically.

[HeroicMythic]

Being silent will not change anything. We need to be vocal and point out, that destro needs a serious buff. A demand that is based on data and not some subjective emotions.

[Deleted]

Destro is weak right now, but I think more and more that the real cause behind it is Wreak Havoc. If they buff ST too much they end up buffing 2 targets fights too much and make destro too op on these encounters. If they give us too much powerful aoe, we end up too op on havoc fight too, stacking aoe + spell duplication (anyway it's a shame destro suck so much during massive aoe fight). So we end up sucking during ST fight and during massive aoe fight (skorpyron, tichondrius, ...), which is 80% of the encounters. We have trouble being decent even on Telarn because there is 3 targets at the end.

But fuck, it's just a simple math problem, you boost ST and reduce damage taken by the secondary target during wreak havoc and you end up having decent ST and good cleave, but no, it won't happen. Buffing CDF would be a decent temporary solution since this can be used during ST and massive aoe fight, but it doesn't seem to be planned.

There is a lot of frustration out there. Clunky mechanics + poor numbers make things quite frustrating. But I'm shocked when I see the number of parsing for nighthold :

For example, on star august etraeus, there is only 4221 parses, while there is 15K for fire mages, 13K for sp, even 9K for enhancement shaman !!!

Dunno the business logic behind class design and balance, but dear felow destro players, we're clearly in way of extinction lol.

EDIT : Cyclone Duke you're completely out of your shoes lol

[Dastey]

Everyone saying that destro will be too strong on 2 target cleave fights can honestly fuck off.

It is OK for classes to be really fucking powerful on certain encounters. Just look at shadow priests on Xavius, and several other speccs on other encounters.

Destruction getting a single target buff would put it in a more balanced state single target and it would actually highlight our strength which is 2 target cleave. Currently we can't even win damage on encounters that are designed for us, since Boomkins and Shadow priests seems better on these encounters.

The only reason I see a single target buff could be worrying would be priority damage which we certainly are still very strong at.

[Aiiitm]

The data's the data and data is useful. But saying don't JUST stick to the data surely has merit, and that we should be also taking the realistic facts and experiences that we live and breath in our personal gameplay day to day when we talk about the state of the class.

Again, not ignoring the fact there's numbers issues - but surely you guys are not being removed from your raids, or have sunk to the bottom of your raids dps charts in the last two weeks? I haven't, I'm still hitting the numbers I was before, a bit higher even since 7.1.5. The numbers problem, to whatever degree it is, has not crushed any point for me to keep attending my raids. I'm still doing great, both compared to my own performance beforehand and to my peers.

I don't think the land around me isn't flooded, to cite Heroicmythic. There's rain - but nobody is drowning and when people try to claim that the sky and all it's contents will fall and crush us (or already has) just because there's some rain, is just something I try to help folks to remember to keep perspective on.
Folks get caught up in the pure spreadsheet number crunching, and read about the top guilds not including X and Y - but do you guys, really, personally, and right now, see the sky falling around you from your own experiences and testing, or are you just reading the crunches and basing your reactions on that?

Of course if we are getting a 9% damage increase to CB, that indicates our numbers were lower than they should have been or even still need to be. But do you really think the problem is legit so exaggerated.
"Does destro need a buff for raiding" - yes I think that's clear and obviously Blizz know it themselves at least from the hotfix notes for this week. But the only thing I'm trying to get people on board with, is not to exaggerate it over the top. Every class constantly needs tweaks but every class constantly overstates the case.

It amazes me, that there are still people thinking destro warlock is in a "good state" i mean this specc can not be more down to the ground. Are you joking?

[vaeevictiss]

My point being, I perform better after the patch and still rank highly among equally geared and skilled players. I don't see any destruction problems just because the 1% mythic top raiders don't take tons of them. Their raiding scene is not like mine or I would expect, like a vast majority of the playerbase's.
Are YOU seriously under-performing and being skipped for raids? If not, why buy so hard into the idea that the sky is falling?

I dunno about you but i got sat this weekend on my guilds heroic kill of Spellblade. Im currently working on dumping AP into my aff weapon to get that up to par. I should add we're ranked 3958 in the world as well. No where even remotely near the top but these issues are still critical when choosing raid comp.

[Baconeggcheese]

Sure, I don't doubt that with the numbers represented, destro is underrepresented for Method or other guilds like that.

Afaik both verdiisha and bangerdotz favor destro, afaik they got their destro weps to 54 first, have destro berries.

Last I checked the majority of the top 10 world warlocks were invested in destro for ap (and obviously in other specs after that since its completely possible to have all 3 specs 54 right now). At the very least most of them were 54 in destro and logging out as destro.

[Fabinas]

I dunno about you but i got sat this weekend on my guilds heroic kill of Spellblade. Im currently working on dumping AP into my aff weapon to get that up to par. I should add we're ranked 3958 in the world as well. No where even remotely near the top but these issues are still critical when choosing raid comp.

You got sat because you where 30 ppl in the raid and somene had to sit out?

Any other case and your guild is not worth it. Unless you're severly undergeared for the content your guild is currently doing.

[Deleted]

Frankly 9% buff to Chaosbolt doesn't quite cut it. Rain of Fire and Cataclysm are still garbage, you lose way too much damage by not taking Soul Harvest.

[Baconeggcheese]

Frankly 9% buff to Chaosbolt doesn't quite cut it. Rain of Fire and Cataclysm are still garbage, you lose way too much damage by not taking Soul Harvest.

There's just shy of a 1% difference between cataclysm and SH in ST.

I'm not sure what you use as your measure for "garbage", but I feel like that's pretty close.