7/10 Mythic Nighthold in less than a day...

[Seliar]

Blizzard cant bring up a good solution for this problem. Like mentioned above every system has its flaws and can be abused. If people are willing to invest that much time or/and have that time to spare im ok with that.

They could implement more feats of strength beside the cutting edge ones for killing the boss in less than x/x+y/x+y+z tries like the xxx in the darkness or knock on wood achievements. Of course it must be account wide so no one can practice the boss with tons of alts.

[Banard]

It's not Blizzard's responsibility to limit how much people should play. Limited attempts were the worst idea they ever came up with for raids and I'm glad they were dropped. If people want to raid 16 hours a day for the first 2 weeks then they should be able to do that, it's their lives and their choice.

Its not about limiting how people should play but more like leveling the playing field. Don't get me wrong i am no shape or form to be in the race but the race itself might be more interesting to watch or even pay attention to if more players were involved in such race.

I have raided every tier since i started in BC....far from the top of the raiding scene buy i have gotten the "ahead of the curve" on every raid since its been out and quit a few "cutting edge"....and have spent 0 time paying any attention to the world first race.

And that is the true issue, the players in the race is small and the audience for the race is small.

Getting more people in the race....that should be a good thing for wow..it should be a good think for those top guild who do then get world first...it should increase the audience...and more interest. Blizzard..on there side should even be making video...broadcasting these races.....this all will be good for the game.


Getting more guilds into the "world first" race by levelling the playing field should not be bad thing. I have no ideas how to do this besides rehashing old wotlk ideas.

it might not be blizzard job to monitor our gameplay but if they want to add the esport tag to wow raiding it is there job to referee and set rules (think limited time = salary cap in the NHL)

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Yeah cause algalon/limited attempts weren't fucking retarded

Maybe it was part of one of the many reasons Ulduar is though of as one of the best raids ever.

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Every system has its flaws. What you describe is actually the raid model we had in WotLK for some of the instances.

Algalon: 1 hour trytime (flawed by problems with dcs back then and server stability)
TotGC: limited boss trys
ICC: limited boss trys (wing endbosses + lk -> count increased every week, was 15 at the start and 50 tops end?)

Try Limit wont hinder you on investing time. I remember when we did try attempts with our 2nd raid back then to check out boss mechanics, so we had more attempts on the main raid. (Gearing 2nd and 3rd characters wasnt an real issue back then, since there was no ap/wf/tf shit implemented)

Blizzard cant bring up a good solution for this problem. Like mentioned above every system has its flaws and can be abused. If people are willing to invest that much time or/and have that time to spare im ok with that.

You are correct....i just rehashed what was in wotlk...but i think its something that needs to address. I have not payed attention to this "world first" scene before...looking up these guilds and seeing the hours the put it?

This isn't a esport here. There is clear winning and loser set up before the raid even opens. That guilds that raids 40+ hours the first week is going to be miles ahead of that guild that raids 6 hours a week....

one finishes the raid in 1 week the other in 3 months....which one is better? who has the better skill? Is there a way to level out the playing field a bit? I have no idea but i do think it something that should be address, just to make it more "prestigious."

This isn't a "i beat every one in wow to the first kill" ...its a "i beat 2 guilds to the first kill go team go".

[Twilight Cultist]

Blizzard to hire a proficient in house testing team and stop allowing open testing. Buggier content I'm sure but the mysticism is already gone after testing and I found it extremely easier for my guilds on live when tested on the PTR as opposed to not.

There is no way an in house testing team would be even remotely as efficient for testing a raid as 100s of different groups testing it. This allows for potentially game breaking bugs that only pop up under extremely rare and specific conditions to be found before things go live. The vast majority of players do not play on the PTR. It makes very little since to spend money hiring a team of people that would end up being less effective than PTR testing, which is free, just so the few people who play on PTR to get an edge no longer have that option and can see a fight for the first time when it goes live. I don't see how/why anyone could think that would be a good idea.

Blizzard already doesn't test the final boss of a raid on it's highest difficulty, and top guilds often complain about how awfully buggy those bosses are when they get to them and that they usually have GMs watching as they progress and constantly live hotfixxing the boss as they progress on it. They are essentially PTR testing the boss for everyone else. Now think about them not testing an entire raid on any difficulty. It would be a mess and they would be a lot more complaints about their raid being a broken then they ever have gotten from people upset because the boss doesn't feel new to them when they get to it on live because they choice to play on PTR.

[Heathy]

the only reason ulduar was cool was because of its unconventional way of triggering hard modes.

limited tries are simply a cock block on progression. all it does is force you to wait a week to blow through all your tries again, it doesn't really help anyone join the world first race, if you want to be world first you have to no life the game like crazy because there is always someone out there who has time to play the game more than you.

I never followed the world first race but I do play on a server with at least 1 world first guild, I don't think anyone but those who have the time to dedicate to it really care much about it. lets face it the majority of raiders raid heroic and might toe dip mythic.

mythic raiding requires a lot of wipes to get right some bosses are easier than others but limited tries its arbitrary difficulty/gating.

[thunterman]

Just remember, these guys are raiding per day more than most do in a week. Consider their first day about the same as a standard Mythic guilds first week. These guys would of put more hours in this week than most guilds will in the next 2 months. Anyone would be able to 7/10 it if they were fortunate enough to have sponsors, playing wow is pretty much their job. A lifestyle I'd imagine is just.. downright horrid. I'm sure if you broke it down, some of the top 100 guilds would be far superior, downing the bosses technically faster, in less playtime, but because they have jobs they don't get the glory for it.

If they made it so hard that it took the likes of method over a month to clear, then no one but the top 10 will even clear it before the next tier, no one out of the top 100 would clear it this expansion.

I don't believe for a second that the top guilds are "better" than anyone else, if you throw enough hours at something you obviously succeed eventually.

[Twilight Cultist]

Just remember, these guys are raiding per day more than most do in a week. Consider their first day about the same as a standard Mythic guilds first week. These guys would of put more hours in this week than most guilds will in the next 2 months. Anyone would be able to 7/10 it if they were fortunate enough to have sponsors, playing wow is pretty much their job. A lifestyle I'd imagine is just.. downright horrid. I'm sure if you broke it down, some of the top 100 guilds would be far superior, downing the bosses technically faster, in less playtime, but because they have jobs they don't get the glory for it.

I keep seeing these false claims since TBC. With the exception to Method, since they recently expanded their brand and now have some sort of revenue, top guilds do not make money from participating in the progression race. It is literally just about bragging rights and that they enjoy the competition. The majority of them are either in school or have full time jobs. They are able to raid as much as they do when the raid releases because they save up all of their leave and use pretty much all of it when progression starts. I believe Method has a rule of raiding hardcore (16) for the first ~8 week days, and then they slow down because they have to get back to work. You typically don't see this because most raids are cleared before 8 week days. An example of this happening was during Archimonde progression in HFC, after a while, Method had to reduce the amount of hours they were raiding because they had to start getting back to work.

[Soulfròst]

OP:

Forgive me if this sounds rude, as that's not my intent... but it seems like you're trying to find a problem where none exists. The top .001% have mastered the game and its possible mechanics. To be expected. Blizzard didn't make that content for these players, so they're not concerned about the most exceptional few players in the world making the hardest raid content seem trivial.

[thunterman]

I keep seeing these false claims since TBC. With the exception to Method, since they recently expanded their brand and now have some sort of revenue, top guilds do not make money from participating in the progression race. It is literally just about bragging rights and that they enjoy the competition. The majority of them are either in school or have full time jobs. They are able to raid as much as they do when the raid releases because they save up all of their leave and use pretty much all of it when progression starts. I believe Method has a rule of raiding hardcore (16) for the first ~8 week days, and then they slow down because they have to get back to work. You typically don't see this because most raids are cleared before 8 week days. An example of this happening was during Archimonde progression in HFC, after a while, Method had to reduce the amount of hours they were raiding because they had to start getting back to work.

True or not, they only appear so good because they play almost endlessly for a solid week. Not much to brag about IMO.

[IceMan1763]

The difference between well tuned raids of the past (from any Xpac) and the mythic race in legion is where you get the gear you need to progress throughout the instance.

In well tuned raids of the past, you needed to accumulate gear primarily from bosses within that raid and bosses further into the instance may necessitate several lockouts worth of gear. In legion, you need primarily as many BIS legendaries as possible. Those come from having ludicrous amounts of play time available (and some luck, of course).

[Lucrece]

The raid has been out for testing since the game went into beta.....these guilds have had the advantage of months to adapt to the fights, that's why the clear times are so quick.

[Ixxie]

sad af what this game has become, no wonder why everyone quits

[ryanmahaffe]

sad af what this game has become, no wonder why everyone quits

Bad troll is bad

Nighthold Mythic in terms of difficulty, shit on almost all raids from Vanilla/BC

[Bigbazz]

It was obviously going to be cleared fast, through the efforts of extreme time dedication, extreme gearing methods like split raiding, M+ key and flex-raid boosting, account sharing, begging for 8/10 lockouts and buying BOE's etc the top guilds all have ilvl900+ ish equipped and 54 traits in all their played specs... Due to the time dedication required if Blizzard had tuned the raid around this then the normal folks would never kill it, so they have effectively done 7/10 with a raid full of extremely well prepared overgeared players.

Then also consider that the top guilds have invested more time raiding Nighthold so far than a lot of guilds will do over the space of months.. Surely it doesn't matter when the average folks who will be attempting Mythic very soon will be 10ilvl lower going in and probably don't even have half of their raid above 45-50 artifact levels. You can't expect a game that has to cater to the masses to be able to create an ever-lasting unbreakable challenge that will take a professional level world class guild pushing 24/7 weeks/months to clear.... It would be fucking pointless.

The raid has been out for testing since the game went into beta.....these guilds have had the advantage of months to adapt to the fights, that's why the clear times are so quick.

Since alpha to be precise, january 2016. And normal/heroic versions of the fights on the alpha also had a lot of additional mechanics compared to now.

[Radaney]

Blizzard should make Mythic even harder so instead of 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000015% of the player base beating mythic raids fully only 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000001% does.

And judging by the screaming when they down a boss I think it's safe to say that they still enjoy downing the bosses so this thread is irrelevant.

It was always irrelevant anyway because none of us are those players to begin with.

People sure do like discussing things that aren't relevant to them, like opposing gay marriage, the personality alignment of famous/rich people they don't know and the feelings of 200 hardcore WoW players.

[Mysterymask]

Never understood the idea of world first races..I mean I think wow is literally the only PVE game where people even care about who finishes something first...there isn't a Dark Souls race..wasn't a Final Fantasy 15 race...I mean we have speedrunning but that's more who can beat it the fastest over who can beat it first...

[Nitros14]

Never understood the idea of world first races..I mean I think wow is literally the only PVE game where people even care about who finishes something first...there isn't a Dark Souls race..wasn't a Final Fantasy 15 race...I mean we have speedrunning but that's more who can beat it the fastest over who can beat it first...

None of those games are remotely as difficult as WoW on cutting edge progression bosses during the first week.

No one puts 200+ hours in the span of a week or two into Dark Souls bosses, especially not when min-maxing everything possible to beat them.

Exorsus, the third guild to kill Mythic Archimonde, put 20 days into it and 740 attempts. Method put 12 days and 450 attempts.

On probably the hardest boss in Dark Souls 3, the nameless king, I killed it in about 90 minutes of tries going in blind.

[Daevelian]

I was kinda under the assumption that the current race was pretty much negligible due to class balance being the worst it has ever been combined with RNG legendaries.

Like seriously, between class devs designing stuff by throwing darts at a dartboard while blindfolded and vital gear being placed behind the shittiest RNG system yet i would not be surprised if no one gave a damn about the current race.

Though, myself, i stopped following them back in MoP. which was when i discovered the race was not a real race due to players learning the fights on the PTR and BETA before the race even begins. Now, a 100% blind mythic world first race? Hell yeah i would be interested, level playing field for EVERYONE!

[Lucrece]

None of those games are remotely as difficult as WoW on cutting edge progression bosses during the first week.

No one puts 200+ hours in the span of a week or two into Dark Souls bosses, especially not when min-maxing everything possible to beat them.

Exorsus, the third guild to kill Mythic Archimonde, put 20 days into it and 740 attempts. Method put 12 days and 450 attempts.

On probably the hardest boss in Dark Souls 3, the nameless king, I killed it in about 90 minutes of tries going in blind.

Difference here being that you were playing a single player game where the only factor in the outcome is your performance.

In raids, it's a game of herding. It doesn't matter how well 18 people do if the other 2 fail.

[Aggrophobic]

sad af what this game has become, no wonder why everyone quits

When you manage to do 7 mythic bosses in one day you can probably say that.
It's not likely you'll ever get there though.

[Kiri]

Difference here being that you were playing a single player game where the only factor in the outcome is your performance.

In raids, it's a game of herding. It doesn't matter how well 18 people do if the other 2 fail.

That is arguably what makes it harder, though, isn't it?
On topic: yeah, this is not 7/10 on the first day. These days you can count the PTR days too, so we are likely at multiple months now.