I'm interested in your opinion regarding M+ Dungeons!

[impending doom]

I like the concept of having challenging 5-man content, but I'd change couple things about how it's implemented:

1. Bosses should be more important than trash, but now it's the other way around.
2. Beating higher challenge should be more rewarding than repeating easy levels 10 times. But now the rewards stop at +12 and the focus is on speed and repetition, instead of actual progression to higher levels.

[elaina]

The timer is annoying. If they were more like regular dungeons with loot off each boss, a difficulty slider, and a better interface for finding groups, I would be into it.

Also I think the affixes are gimmicky and aren't needed.

[Daffan]

I like it but WF/TF three chesting is lame.

Wait, WF/TF as a whole is lame. It should be only linear. You farm crappy +2/3? Bad luck you only get 845-850.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Oh, but I do have a guild. Just more, hard to plan for some Mythic+ when I have to plan it with when I have time. Parenting sorta removes me from the window where they most other take their runs, sadly.

As for raiding, luckily, found awesome people in that guild for it.

Cheers.

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The timer is annoying. If they were more like regular dungeons with loot off each boss, a difficulty slider, and a better interface for finding groups, I would be into it.

Also I think the affixes are gimmicky and aren't needed.

Sounds like you're describing Heroic!

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I like the concept of having challenging 5-man content, but I'd change couple things about how it's implemented:

1. Bosses should be more important than trash, but now it's the other way around.
2. Beating higher challenge should be more rewarding than repeating easy levels 10 times. But now the rewards stop at +12 and the focus is on speed and repetition, instead of actual progression to higher levels.

Rewards stop at +15. 12 is the new 10, 10 is the new 7, and anything below 4 may as well be a normal dungeon.

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the way I see it M+ is a "mouse wheel" for iLvl buffs. If you are the sort of person thats driven to obtain the highest number possible in the numbers column of the numbers tab, then this device was created to keep to keep you busy playing the game instead of complaining in the forums. You can argue that only the former worked while the latter didn't.

I don't do it. That level of repetition goes against my enjoyment of the game. I don't care whats the ilevel of this generic looking dungeon item if I have to spend several hours a day to get a small chance for it. I rather raid.

If I waited for raid loot to drop, I'd be 20 levels lower. Raiding goes slow, and bosses won't drop anything for me, and coins are AP which I don't need anymore... so yeah, that 900 cache has been my friend.

[Soeroah]

Sorry for deviating from topic, but some DPS can already solo heroics. In 7.2 gear I expect those dungeons to be as hard as killing Pridelord Meowl for the world quest.

I understand what you mean, but heroics and regular mythics are just incredibly undertuned.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as the hidden artifact appearance skin requires completing 100 dungeons and you have to do that on as many classes as you want to unlock that skin for, the faster dungeons are the better. I really wouldn't care about the buffing as much if it were only 50, or if it were an account-wide unlock, but when a time-limited reward is locked behind triple-digit numbers of dungeon runs per class I find the decision to, for the first time as far as I can remember, buff dungeon difficulty rather annoying.

I know we'll still be powerful against world quests and raids and such, but it feels like negating much of the power we've acquired so far in the expansion. Good for returning or new players, I guess, but it kinda sucks. People who were interested in harder runs have the option to do Mythic+, which as far as I know was the whole point, so it just rubs me the wrong way.

[cuafpr]

Completely agree. I've never enjoyed the "gogogo" mentality in dungeons, and timers only serve to encourage it.

this right here, i stopped pugging them as a tank as if you make one mistake, extra pull or dont know the "short cuts" you can get blasted. Guild grps are ok but still hate the time system, cause of the over all mentality of it. The only part i do like is the trash meter and wish it was harder to meet and used in HCs.

[Deleted]

Puging them is terrible. Doing them with guild can be fun. They become boring as soon as they are "farm content" which position they reached after like 2-3 weeks into Legion.

[tss]

I liked the idea when it was first presented because I, in my delusion, thought it might mean the return of precisely pulling packs apart. Surgical, methodical.

Nope, just another ADD fuckfest which also happens to be the main source of AP grinding. The only CCs effectively left in PVE are interrupt and stun. Nah, bye.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

It's great! but I'd like a bit more variation, perhaps in future we can have dungeons which swap out bosses.

That would be fun. Make them feel more alive. Competitive types would be frustrated without the same specifics each run. But many of us would enjoy the variety.

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It surely beats one-shoting world quest mobs and trying to stay awake.

IMHO, if you are playing a game where the chance of failing doesn't exists, this game is too boring. The risk of dying should be always present. That's (one of the reasons) why Dark Souls is so good.

^^^THIS! I do think a lot of players (dare I use the term casual?) prefer content they can take at a chill pace and always defeat without much challenge. But I love the fast pace and challenging affixes of M+. I'm not afraid of failure, and all my guild mates understand I derp sometimes. They put up with me because I'm patient with their derps and for my occasional moments of brilliance.

[Lochton]

Cheers.

Though, thank you for worrying.

[xxcloud417xx]

That would be fun. Make them feel more alive. Competitive types would be frustrated without the same specifics each run. But many of us would enjoy the variety.

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^^^THIS! I do think a lot of players (dare I use the term casual?) prefer content they can take at a chill pace and always defeat without much challenge. But I love the fast pace and challenging affixes of M+. I'm not afraid of failure, and all my guild mates understand I derp sometimes. They put up with me because I'm patient with their derps and for my occasional moments of brilliance.

That's what's good about them, and I agree completing a tough M+ is rewarding in and of itself. However, the gear from them leaves much to be desired due to the most punishing RNG and how it utterly devalues certain raid gear which is supposed to be the actual endgame and difficult content... I like the challenge, hate the loot philosphy behind them...

I'm okay with them giving you something cool for completing them, but do it without making my hard won raid gear seem like a downgrade...

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

That's what's good about them, and I agree completing a tough M+ is rewarding in and of itself. However, the gear from them leaves much to be desired due to the most punishing RNG and how it utterly devalues certain raid gear which is supposed to be the actual endgame and difficult content... I like the challenge, hate the loot philosphy behind them...

I'm okay with them giving you something cool for completing them, but do it without making my hard won raid gear seem like a downgrade...

Why does raid gear have to be the actual endgame and difficult content? As long as the reward matches the challenge, what's wrong with endgame dungeons?

[Banquetto]

Haven't tried one, not particularly interested in non-queueable small group content.

[Kudos]

I enjoyed them at first. Now they're just something else to complete before each weekly reset for the Order Hall cache.

[Mumba]

I like the idea of it, but us players kinda ruins everything by demanding 870 ilvl for +4.

[nekobaka]

I enjoy having progression outside of raid content. I am glad to have on my my chosen non-raid activities after devs took it away to shove non-raiders into raiding.

[Pickynerd]

I enjoy it, also great way to gear our alts.

[SirCowdog]

I LOVE the concept and mechanics of M+ within the dungeon itself. What I don't like, however, is the current keystone system, and the time vs reward. Certain M+ dungeons are clearly longer and more difficult than others, leading people to prefer certain runs over others. Meaning that if you get the "wrong" keystone you're SoL.

Additionally, I'd like to see the M+ mechanics applied to other areas of the game. M+ scenarios for smaller groups, for example. Or even solo-player challenges. IMHO, the mythic+ systems could be applied to EVERY instanced content that WoW has ever had. This could bring relevance to previously outdated content in a MUCH better way than timewalking could ever hope to achieve.

[Tanthoris]

I like them, but sometimes I find the affix combos to be pretty damn annoying to deal with sometimes. A speed run CAN be a challenge, but when due to some affixes 1 trash mob being able to 1 shot a tank through AM and even DM CDs can be a little ridiculous. I'm sure I'll get flamed with the G3T GUD nonsense, but I mean it's just how it is honestly.

[xxcloud417xx]

Why does raid gear have to be the actual endgame and difficult content? As long as the reward matches the challenge, what's wrong with endgame dungeons?

You're never going to convince me, or a good many people, that building/coordinating a team of 5 skilled and intelligent players is more difficult than 20 of them. Raiding is harder. Period. I'm not talking about Normal/Heroic here, endgame is Mythic.

The reward matching the challenge is fine, I'm not disagreeing with you here. What I'm saying is not to have Mythic dungeons even with a "difficult" key devalue the reward from Mythic Raids which are significantly higher test of resilience and skill both in playing the game, but also in dealing with (or coordinating/leading for some people) a true team.

The m+ system is the best addition to the game since I started playing in wrath. I have complaints about it but the big picture is its revitalized the game for me.

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How much of your problem would be resolved if they got rid of war/titanforging and just had fixed ilvls? That way you'd get 1 900 a week if you did a+15 (which is harder than heroic raiding), and 885s at max from chests. To me this seems fine.

I do think they have problems with itemization they also need to fix, like how they utterly suck at designing good trinkets. But I view those two issues as problems distinct from m+.

You're right there. I agree that it's revitalizing for WoW. Gives us geared people something of a challenge to run higher keys.

You also hit the nail on the head with the trinket design thing being a distinct problem and not necessarily quite a Mythic+ one. Unfortunately, Faulty Countermeasure exists to piss off all Ret Paladins who don't want to chain-run Wardens, or who have terrible RNG like I'm seemingly getting. Hard dungeons are fun, but the same one constantly is grueling. Which is an RNG issue that M+ is just riddled with, and you do mention another facet of that with the gripe about Warfroge/Titanforge loot.

I like what you're suggesting with removal of WF/TF. It would alleviate some of the frustration we're already dealing with. 885 to 900ilvl isn't a bad baseline for high Mythic+ either, since the Mythic Raid gear is higher than that already and that won't devalue it.