M+ should have been dungeon crawling

[MonsieuRoberts]

Additionally, I don't believe instanced content in WoW will contain exploration and slow dungeon crawling any longer. The playerbase hasn't been groomed for a Blackrock Depths-esque experience. Kara is similar to those oldschool instances in some ways, but without scaling rewards no one will run it after a while.

And what do you know, it's becoming a 2-tier Mythic+.

Easily repayable content with easy rewards is the mainstay of this game's instanced content from now on.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I mean more like wipe and try again adjusting your strategy. The timer doesn't afford you that many wipes.

Anyway when I think Dungeon Crawling, I think D&D. And that means no more idiot monsters waiting their turn to be killed. Prepare for a non-stop pull as every group sends runners to inform the next group, no boss waits for his room to be cleared before engaging you and there is no aggro since everyone is intelligent enough to gang up on the healer.
Now THAT is Dungeon Crawling.

YEAH! I remember those days. WoW bosses are so much politer and more patient than mine (as DM) ever were. They sit and ignore you for 10 minutes while you discuss strats for killing them and put raid markers all over their room. And let's not even talk about the 'guards' who don't notice you when you're killing their mates in plain sight.

Unfortunately one of us (DM) also had to play designer and come up with new content each week. Also the frames per second could turn into frames per hour as we debated the terms for each dice roll.

So there were some downsides but variety, challenge, and creativity weren't among them!

- - - Updated - - -

Additionally, I don't believe instanced content in WoW will contain exploration and slow dungeon crawling any longer. The playerbase hasn't been groomed for a Blackrock Depths-esque experience. Kara is similar to those oldschool instances in some ways, but without scaling rewards no one will run it after a while.

And what do you know, it's becoming a 2-tier Mythic+.

Easily repayable content with easy rewards is the mainstay of this game's instanced content from now on.

"Return to Karazhan" is great, though, isn't it? They did such a brilliant job of adding several creative new encounters while still maintaining the original flavor.

See that's the thing I love so far about Legion. Variety of content. I love Kara, love Nighthold, and love M+. They all play differently. I would get bored if they all ran at the same pace and felt like the same activity.

[Hctaz]

If you look at raiding that isn't at all the case. There are no timers that decide if you are ready to move from normal to heroic or from heroic to mythic. Speed isn't the only viable metric.

With the way this system works it has to be the way. There is not really any other way to judge it. The system comes directly from Diablo 3. The other difference is that raiding only has 3 toggleable difficulties. M+ is infinite. You can't just not have a cap to that somehow.

[MonsieuRoberts]

"Return to Karazhan" is great, though, isn't it? They did such a brilliant job of adding several creative new encounters while still maintaining the original flavor.

See that's the thing I love so far about Legion. Variety of content. I love Kara, love Nighthold, and love M+. They all play differently. I would get bored if they all ran at the same pace and felt like the same activity.

I can't disagree at all, I've liked all the content so far.

Gameplay mechanics like Artifacts not so much, but the actual instances have been fantabulous.

[Deleted]

If you want the timer to matter less just push higher dungeons to the point where you have to go slow. People fall into this trap of thinking that M+ is solely about speed, when all they are looking at are keys they can easily do. When you can 'easily' do keys it becomes about smashing through them for quick and easy rewards.

Timer really doesn't matter when you start hitting the upper limits of what you're group can physically do. Trust me, as long as your DPS is decent, and your tank isn't falling over you can do one pack at a time and meet the 'timer'. There is nothing stopping people from doing this, and this is exactly how I have to approach dungeons when I do most 18-19 dungeons right now.

If timers didn't exist you would just have people save CDs for packs, or just CC everything to take all the challenge out. The only difficulty would be in the bosses or mobs that can't be CCd at that point, to which they either kill you through shear damage or you don't have enough damage to physically kill the boss.

Timers are a necessary evil. Again, as said if you want to learn the dungeon at a slow pace just brick your key and take your time. You're still going to get loot at the end even if it's depleted.

To me the design of old dungeons in TBC was deplorable, and awful. It was simply kite everything or bring enough CC, because all the mobs did in the dungeon was a massive amount of physical damage that killed non-tanks (or tanks) pretty quickly. The pacing was slow and there was nothing mechanically interesting about the majority of the dungeons. The mechanic was basically 'hurr durr' I hit really hard, you better CC a lot of us or get overwhelmed. That's essentially what starts happening at really high M+ right now, if you actually push to what you gear barely allows you to do. The difference is that there are far more mechanics involved in dungeon design than there was in the past, and increasingly so with each expansion.

Well, CC and kiting was a thing which I liked in TBC heroics, because it gave DPS more things to do than just DPS and probably watch aggro. I had a part of responsibility in the survival of the group, besides healer and tank which focus primarily on this. Also, you had a kill sequence for mobs - depending on the trash packs, this also helped to differentiate things a bit. AoE was reserved for non-elite trashpacks, if you did not have mobs which exploded upon death, or for groups with a well geared tank, healer and capable DPS. This was a tactical approach, not this time-based one. You still could get better timers if you had a better group, of course, but it was not important for your success.

This whole PvE competition thing and different difficulty layers is a bit unhealthy for the game, it creates a lot of separation. Up and included Wrath, I was a raider, a heroic raider even. I did successful ZA time runs, I was on our guild's team for the first kill of Archimonde in Hyjal, and part of the progression team in TBC. I had a semi-progression 25 normal and a 10 heroic raid group in Wrath. I probably still have the skill for heroic raids, but I just cannot stand scheduling my game time anymore, or spend time with people I don't like on a regular basis, just because "epics!". But I am also not the competitive type, I just want to get things done as flawless as possible.

So, to summarize: I like a tactical approach, but I don't like this difficulty layers concept. Thus, WoW endgame is not for me anymore. I dabble in lower M+, but I don't see me going into higher levels. Well, at least I was able to do my CMs in MoP and WoD.

[schwarzkopf]

Yes! Most of my end-of-week guild runs tend toward this variety. We've done the hard work to boost the keys; now we're just chilling and helping other guild mates get their best key for the weekly chest.

I don't get to do more than 1 or 2 a week sadly...

[Deleted]

If you look at raiding that isn't at all the case. There are no timers that decide if you are ready to move from normal to heroic or from heroic to mythic. Speed isn't the only viable metric.

There are no timers? Either you are trolling or just lfr bad. Ever heard of "Enrage". Lots of guilds were to shitty for guarm heroic and thus couldn't progress further. It's exactly the fuckin same with mythic+. If you are to shit to finish 14 in time, you don't get to do a 15.

[Deleted]

Lol you guys, thats why wow is what it is now. Socials that want to get everything for free. Hurr durr its timed i dont want it timed hurr durr blizzard change it. You dont like competition in doing high lvl keys in time to get upgrade and try another, harder one? Then go do normals/heroics/mythic +0. All that talk about one bl for dung, one potion for dung - hahaha, bullsh*t. If you dont like competition in getting geared like everyone is doing just do pvp wq crafts or raids if you're capable to. Without timer there would be bunch of socials running with 890+ gear while performing like they are 840. Ilvl wouldn't matter because you could turn of your monitor and still upgrade your key just by clickin few buttons every few min. Guilds who look for people for progress would have to actually take them on a raid just to see 890 mage doing 300k on burst phase, because items doesnt matter since you can get them even if you dont deserve it. You're social? Fine, stick to m0 and lfr, dont try to influence things just to make it easier for you. Wow is a game that should reward players that actually taking time to learn about mechanics, about how to properly play your character, not this sh*t with "i wanna do that easier because i dont wanna rush"

[Desparil]

Nah its fine this way if you wanna take it slow just go m+15(or 20 for that mater) sheep/sap/bribe/smell the roses and spend your night in there you will still get chest but you wont get to 16 with 5 people in group thats still 5 keys you can use all week, stop rushing trough low ones if you don't like it.

M+ without timer would be like boss without enrage you would eventually kill him with boredom.

[Ishayu]

I also don't think M+ was what this game needed.

It misses out on the most fundamental aspect of WoW: Exploration.

I think this whole notion of doing the same thing over and over again on many difficulty levels forgets one of the most fundamental aspects of what makes WoW fun. I, too, want more dungeons like Karazhan. A 3-4 hour epic dungeon crawl with optional stuff out of the wazoo and multiple paths through it.

And let's remember why this wing got these 3-4 boss instances that take 30 minutes in the first place.

We started with epic dungeon crawls, but then there were weekly lockouts and people didn't want to risk getting locked out with a group that couldn't finish.

This problem was solved with wings. But we have also solved it with boss lockouts instead of group lockouts, so we don't need wings.

Because of the winged nature of the game, players had a hard time doing all the stuff because you had to keep constructive groups too often due to wings. That was solved with LFD/LFR, but if you don't have wings, this problem goes away to some extent.

When you have LFD/LFR, the content needs to not assume tight coordination. However, this assumption makes no sense if you don't need to have LFD/LFR because you don't need to construct groups all the time, which you don't because you're not doing 3-4 boss instances.

Flex scaling allows us to have dungeons scale from 5 players to 10 players, say, so that dungeons could accomodate players joining and leaving over the course of a run, allowing people to see what's going on in there.

Frankly, I want 5-10 man 8-12 boss epic dungeon crawls that take 4 hours to complete, but I also want the ability to use the group finder to find groups at different levels of progress.

Furthermore, I want these dungeons to be very different in difficulty, and I want there to be a progression through them that ends up being able to compete with some of the best gear out there.

If we have, say, 3-4 dungeons that are base level or levelling dungeons, then 2 that are pretty easy but a little harder than the first, then another 2 that are much harder and equivalent to end-game raiding, then I think we'll be in a really good spot.

I know this isn't going to happen for Legion, but I think it's a much better model for WoW going forward than M+.

[Deleted]

Personally the timer is a big turn off for me. I like how the mobs get affixes and hp /dmg , but the stress of HAVING to get 3 chest ruins it.
Imo it would be a good change if they just turned it into 1 chest only (with max timer). They could add the old "3 chest" timer as a achievement or something..

[Deleted]

Basically what I read here is : I want non timer mythic plus dungeons so I can get easy loot without having to do much.

The timers are the good thing about it. The system works well, if you don't like it, stick to raids.

[Deleted]

Personally the timer is a big turn off for me. I like how the mobs get affixes and hp /dmg , but the stress of HAVING to get 3 chest ruins it.
Imo it would be a good change if they just turned it into 1 chest only (with max timer). They could add the old "3 chest" timer as a achievement or something..

You see what is the problem with all of you? You DONT HAVE TO. You really dont. And what stress? Its only game, you get 3 chests, nice. You get one? Nice too.

[Drefanator]

It would be really cool to see random dungeons/bosses, or a tower of dungeons kind of thing, where you have to do 100 floors of dungeon/bosses. Getting progressively harder. Could just be iconic and original hall ways/trash/bosses. Do 4 levels of trash/hallways then do a boss. Only able to use bloodlust 5 times in the entire dungeon and a max of 10 deaths split across your party. Can still have the affixes and combinations, but it would be less about speed (could still be about speed) but all about the difficulty. With the top of the tower being a raid level boss that you have to beat with a 5 man (with some scaled abilities that require X amount of people).

[Deleted]

Why would you even suggest taking the things that make WoW real WoW and change them to be diablolike? Whats the point? It's World of Warcraft, not World of Diablo or some other World of JanapeseMMORPG

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Not crack speed running and boosting for chests.
Why does everything have to be more more more and fast fast fast in wow?
Where's the content for people who want to stop and smell the roses and enjoy and get to know a dungeon?
Logging in for a night could be doing 1 dungeon instead of doing 10.

I think that content is Karazhan.

[groparu]

My problem with this M+ system is the lack of punishment for players that simply leave your party after a mistake in the dungeon run. Me and a friend lost to depletion two + 12 keys due to pugs leaving the party, pugs that probably expect that every dungeon with every possible afixxes combo up to +12 should be done with 3 chests without any issues. I'm ok with timers on M+ but the fact that on high level keys people simply leave without any penalty at all, just so they can find another group were if they feel something went wrong they can bail on that also is not OK.

This is why everyone ( mostly up to +9) are searching for boost groups, even if they don't get 3 chests atleast they know for sure their key will not become depleted because someone left the group and the current system does not allow you to replace.

As regarding to timers in M+, they are necessary, TBC dungeons were fun back then but in today's game,players simply don't have time nor patience to run 1-2 hours dungeons and also, the items rewarded for 1 or 2 chests are very low, over 70% of the dungeons I cleared with 2 chests I received zero items.

[Drefanator]

Because the lifespan for dungeons is getting shorter and shorter. Normal is useless pretty much as soon as you hit 110, Heroic is done for about 2 weeks before you out gear, and pretty much no one does normal Mythics as either LFR/M+ out gears those. For those that dont like either the rush/speed of M+ or the feel of raids, there is nothing for those people. Sure you can take your time, go slow and beat the dungeon without beating the timer, but if its your key you do that once a week.

And besides Legion already uses a large amount of Diablo and visa-versa

[Nero Stormchester]

If there was no limit, people would do that to push the highest M+ levels.

No matter how many CDs they stuck (even if they do) - that will only get them so far. And 850 group will never clear +15 even if they stack all of their cooldowns, the bosses will obliterate them

[cuafpr]

I really don't like the timers either; but according to people if there were no timers groups would pull trash 10 minutes at a time with heroism or something, so timers are necessary.

if a 5 man was hard enough that it warranted that i'd love it, and if under geared people wanted to dedicate that much time to the run more power to them..... it would be such a bad way to gear it would never be worth it. Same thing when people say they would just bring 3 tanks 2 and healers...