Mafia 79.12.7.1996 Jokpardy

[Marack]

Sorry for my absence most of today. Still fighting a bad cold and spent a good portion asleep. Hopefully I'll be better this week at work.

I was going to disregard this question, since I've touched on this matter on several occasions already; There is alot of unexplainable (that's a word?) missing night kills, regardless of the killers identity and team. This applies to everybody.

With as seasoned and devious as Ive seen Ret through the games I've follow (Pokemon and on) and played, I could see him running the gambit of not killing as a scum. If anyone left tin the game were able to pull it off, it'd be Ret. Hats off to you if thats what you're doing.

I also agree with Monkz on most of his analysis (#380). However, I dont agree with his N2. Just because someone asks “would I do X as scum?” doesnt mean a lot. It is WIFOM and not much else. But I agree that there isnt much to go on there.

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Now time for me to go back through the thread and see if I can pick anything out before voting.

[Reticence]

Do I think you're both fully capable of faking a discussion? Yes.

You're either being incredibly reductive, or you don't realize how close I was to being lynched that day, and how much Virothe was responsible for it.

Granted, you have a case here. But it's wifom and you know it. In my very first mafia game (yep, that's a while back), Catta said something that really stuck to me; If someone asks you "Would I really do X if I were scum?" the answer is always "Yes". Because that alone is incentive to do said thing.

Fine, sure; in the broadest sense, it falls under WIFOM. There are diminishing returns on that argument, though, and you know it.

In this scenario, it's not just a case of sub-optimal play, which could prove beneficial by way of unpredictability. It's a case of one player taking the one action that would reflect the worst on another player, and then arguing that they are not just on the same team, but that they are each other's only teammate. You can't just WIFOM hand-wave that away like you would any other; you need to be okay with that rationalization.

I think that's possible, yes. Explain further.

It's just a question of whether or not you think I'd target a claimed cop immediately, or wait a night, particularly given that kills were apparently already having difficulty finding their targets. I'll admit that this one is standard WIFOM, though.

Granted. Not hammering Danner definitely gives you town-points. But as I recall it, you showed up really close to deadline, and probably didn't have time to fully read the arguments and pushes against Danner on D4. You might've thought that hammering would've compromised your position.

I never post before reading everything. I would also argue that after three nights of failed kills, scum's position was already pretty compromised. At that point, they needed to get rid of someone, anyone, especially an investigated player.

I was going to disregard this question, since I've touched on this matter on several occasions already; There is alot of unexplainable (that's a word?) missing night kills, regardless of the killers identity and team. This applies to everybody.

No, it doesn't. Not in this context.

In order for you to label me as scum, you have two choices: rationalize me being on Virothe's team, or rationalize even more missing kills. If the former doesn't make any sense (and it doesn't), then you increase your own burden of proof.

[Monkz]

In order for you to label me as scum, you have two choices: rationalize me being on Virothe's team, or rationalize even more missing kills. If the former doesn't make any sense (and it doesn't), then you increase your own burden of proof.

I can't but a definite label on you Ret. But I can't do that with Kryl either. No matter who the last scum is, there is gonna be alot of questions and things that doesn't really add up.
If you're a VT, I can definitely see it from your position. And I've been in that position plenty of times. Where things seems pretty straight forward, but that's based on the fact that you know your own allegiance.
Try to look at it objectively from my perspective. I don't know your allegiance. I don't know Kryllians allegiance.
None of you fit perfectly on the last scum. But a decision has to be made.
It's not about finding the perfect match in this case. Because it's simply not there. It's about finding the least far-fetched match.

[Reticence]

It's not about finding the perfect match in this case. Because it's simply not there. It's about finding the least far-fetched match.

That's kind of my point, though. In the simplicity of my argument, I am illustrating for you why I am a far-fetched match. I understand that you don't know my alignment, and I understand that that makes it more difficult for you. And yes, it's a little frustrating that you can't see how far-fetched the case against me is, but that's not the bulk of it:

• I've actually provided a defense for myself and feel like it's being hand-waved away. I have yet to hear a cogent argument for me actually being on Virothe's team. I have yet to hear anything actually being brought against me beyond "oh, but you were jailed one night".

• There are days worth of player interactions that I'm not even sure are being factored into this decision; days that existed solely for our scum-hunting benefit; interactions that all three of you have said that you're reading through, but I have yet to hear a word about that I have not prompted myself.

• I took the time to compile a sensible case against Kryllian actually being part of an SK duo and have yet to hear anything about it, while his entire case against me comes down to Crackle jailing me N4.

[Monkz]

That's kind of my point, though. In the simplicity of my argument, I am illustrating for you why I am a far-fetched match. I understand that you don't know my alignment, and I understand that that makes it more difficult for you. And yes, it's a little frustrating that you can't see how far-fetched the case against me is, but that's not the bulk of it:

• I've actually provided a defense for myself and feel like it's being hand-waved away. I have yet to hear a cogent argument for me actually being on Virothe's team. I have yet to hear anything actually being brought against me beyond "oh, but you were jailed one night".

• There are days worth of player interactions that I'm not even sure are being factored into this decision; days that existed solely for our scum-hunting benefit; interactions that all three of you have said that you're reading through, but I have yet to hear a word about that I have not prompted myself.

• I took the time to compile a sensible case against Kryllian actually being part of an SK duo and have yet to hear anything about it, while his entire case against me comes down to Crackle jailing me N4.

I understand your frustration. And I'd like to point out that reading through your posts the last couple of hours definitely helps your case.
However; I don't wan't to make a rash call here, which is why I haven't got a vote out.

So please don't insinuate that I'm not listening to you. Everything is being factored in to this decision.

[Reticence]

Fair enough. For what it's worth, I did not mean to imply intent, only express my perception (or not-knowing, in this case).

[Kryllian]

Vote Reticence

We only have a couple hours left so people need to make choices. I've been letting Ret state his piece as to why I am scum over him. He definitely has some points that I was more pushing on someone who is confirmed town than confirmed scum on D2/D3. But that means his whole argument is that I was protecting a team mate. It could just as easily be flipped around and said that he was bussing a teammate. This is why I don't personally hold a lot of faith in the "who interacted with who" arguments or "constellations" as Danner likes to call it. Bussing is just as real as non-interaction with teammates.

Ret also pointied out my connection issues during one day phase but saying that's suspicious could just as easily apply to Marack stating he's been sick and that's why he's been so quiet. It's all in perception of the posts and it's very easy to lie and make excuses for behavior online since it can't be verified in any way.

My argument comes down to the fact that Ret, Marack, and I are all interchangeable at this point when we try to debate why night kills are missing. The only difference is Marack has an innocent investigation on him, while Ret and I do not have any results. Additionally Ret is jailed one night that we know of while it is unknown if I was jailed or Monkz was last night when a kill went through. That means at least one more missing kill is explainable if Ret is scum.

Like everything in this game it comes down to a combination of luck and gut feels with the evidence you have.

[Reticence]

Vote Reticence

We only have a couple hours left so people need to make choices. I've been letting Ret state his piece as to why I am scum over him. He definitely has some points that I was more pushing on someone who is confirmed town than confirmed scum on D2/D3. But that means his whole argument is that I was protecting a team mate.

No. That was only one piece of my argument against you, and that had more to do with potentially playing both sides of the situation.

It could just as easily be flipped around and said that he was bussing a teammate.

Who was I "bussing", exactly?

This is why I don't personally hold a lot of faith in the "who interacted with who" arguments or "constellations" as Danner likes to call it. Bussing is just as real as non-interaction with teammates.

So... what's the point of the day phase, then? This game, seriously.

Ret also pointied out my connection issues during one day phase but saying that's suspicious could just as easily apply to Marack stating he's been sick and that's why he's been so quiet. It's all in perception of the posts and it's very easy to lie and make excuses for behavior online since it can't be verified in any way.

D2: Here, he opened with a vote on Danner, and floated a theory in (#102) that Danner and Virothe are scumbuddies for their last-minute Graeham votes on D1. Other than that, he largely stayed out the fray between myself, Danner and Virothe, citing computer/site difficulties, although he did call out Monkz for being misleading in (#160) for unvote/voting Palawin.

I never said it was suspicious. In fact, I have to have my script-killing extension running every time I come here or my browser shits itself and dies from all the crap the site likes to load in the background.

I very clearly did not state any of my personal interpretations or opinions until the Takeaways section. Everything in the first section was very matter-of-fact.

Nice spin, though.

[Marack]

Like everything in this game it comes down to a combination of luck and gut feels with the evidence you have.

This is my problem right now. Most of what I have goes off gut feels and an imperfect recollection of interactions throughout the game. I could ore for either Ret or kryllian at this point. The issue with that is definitely Lylo. If we are wrong, scum will just kill again, ending the game.

Kry votes Ret
Ret votes Kry
If monkz and myself don't vote, scum will likely kill monkz then it's back to me to decide the fate of the game.

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Ret, you have put one hell of a case together for yourself as town, but you really haven't done anything to convince me kry is scum

Kry. you tried to make a case that Ret is scum, but don't have me sold that you are town.

[Reticence]

Ret, you have put one hell of a case together for yourself as town, but you really haven't done anything to convince me kry is scum

O_o

Post (#377)? Thoughts?

[Kryllian]

The purpose of the day phase is to catch people in lies. If Monkz says he got a no result on an investigation of Danner, but Crackle says he jailed Graeham, well then someone is lying. And likely one of the two is scum. For anyone who doesn't have a power role it's the chance to look for hints that might be dropped, or to bait the scum into killing us off as VT by pretending to have more power than we do and save the TPR. As I stated, I have have less faith in the ability to determine scum/town based on interactions with possible teammates than I do in hard evidence of who voted for whom and who had opportunity and motive to perform a night action that is verified. Neither is a perfect science in an online discussion game.

I'm not trying to "spin" your posts Ret. We may very well be a VT vs a VT and Marack is laughing his ass off as an inv immune scum who's played us all.

If that's the case congrats to him on fooling us, but it's just further proof that we can't keep fighting/lynching the people who put themselves out there and letting the quieter players slide by. We need to fundamentally change how we play the game all together and make sure that everyone is engaged every day phase and if you don't post/don't vote you go early.

Similarly Large could have decided to be a jerk and make the cop scum and Monkz is going to win. If that's the case I won't be playing any Large modded games for awhile as he didn't just bend the rule he completely changed the rules without any warning as we have been relying on certain standing expectations (cop is always town) the whole game. Large is the only one who really wins for being a bastard mod in that case.

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At this point Marack, i'm not sure what else either of us can do to offer up more information in the last hour. He and I are already going back and forth restating pretty much the same arguments.

You are right, this day has always been about Marack/Monkz vote as Ret and I were most likely going to vote each other unless we came to some brilliant conclusion as to why we should team up and go for you but then we'd have to agree on that and sell Monkz on it, which he made clear that he was taking you out of the equation due to the innocent invest result.

[Reticence]

The purpose of the day phase is to catch people in lies. If Monkz says he got a no result on an investigation of Danner, but Crackle says he jailed Graeham, well then someone is lying. And likely one of the two is scum. For anyone who doesn't have a power role it's the chance to look for hints that might be dropped, or to bait the scum into killing us off as VT by pretending to have more power than we do and save the TPR. As I stated, I have have less faith in the ability to determine scum/town based on interactions with possible teammates than I do in hard evidence of who voted for whom and who had opportunity and motive to perform a night action that is verified. Neither is a perfect science in an online discussion game.

If this is true, and I'm interpreting you correctly, then you and I just fundamentally disagree on the day-phase and the role of VTs.

Those day interactions fuel the hints that you're looking for. Engaging other players typically makes them talk more; if you're engaging scum, you are actively forcing them to spin more of their story, possibly even lie, and you increase the pressure on them. Conversely, not engaging them lets them off easy. I know that you know this, but it applies to the constellations: who did they push? Who did they not push? Why did they do or not do that? Did they have something to gain? What does that mean in the broader context?

Yes, WIFOM exists. Yes, it can be turned against us. That said, WIFOM is a variably-mitigating factor and should not be used to wave everything away. At the end of the day, motivations don't just apply to night actions and votes; they apply to the things you say to other people. A group of well-playing VTs should be able to sniff out an entire mafia scum based on nothing but posts and votes; they don't need the cop, or any other TPR, to win (they're just nice to have), and they are not fodder.

We may very well be a VT vs a VT and Marack is laughing his ass off as an inv immune scum who's played us all.

God, I hope not.

You are right, this day has always been about Marack/Monkz vote as Ret and I were most likely going to vote each other unless we came to some brilliant conclusion as to why we should team up and go for you but then we'd have to agree on that and sell Monkz on it, which he made clear that he was taking you out of the equation due to the innocent invest result.

Sadly, this.

Don't get me wrong, I think his popping in throughout the day has been awfully hands-off, but unless you want to make a case for it, I'm unlikely to vote him over you in the last six minutes of the day over it.

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Vote Kryllian

Apparently I never voted.

[Kryllian]

@Monkz @Marack are you around to vote? If Ret votes me we tie it up and wind up going another day phase potentially which is freaking ridiculous. I'd rather you both vote for me and let the last scum do their NK to end the game.

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unvote

I'm not willing to let this go further

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congrats SK/Mafia whatever you are

[Largehorn]

Kryllian (1) - Reticence (#392)

With 4 people alive it takes 3 to lynch.

With 1 vote cast it takes 1 to lynch.

Kryllian playing I have a Chardonnay (Vanilla Town Member) has been lynched.

Vanilla Town Member

You are I have a Chardonnay. Not to be confused with I have a hardon.

You have your vote. Use it well.

Win Condition: Save Celebrity Jeopardy from those who might do it harm.

End of Game:
Monkz playing Anal Bum Cover (Detective) has been slain!

Detective

You are Anal Bum Cover. You really are an Album cover, but you can't get rid of the nick name now.

You know what the bad categories are after and what they look like. Each night you may investigate 1 player to find out if they are "a bad category".

Win Condition: Save Celebrity Jeopardy from those who might do it harm.

Marack playing Catch the Semen (Vanilla Town Member) has been slain!

Vanilla Town Member

You are Catch the Semen. Ummm well... yeah... bad categories want to destroy Jeopardy... *cough*

You have your vote. Use it well.

Win Condition: Save Celebrity Jeopardy from those who might do it harm.

Congratulations to Reticence playing The Penis Mightier (Serial Killer) for having won the game!

Quick Topics: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/HRC6t3SunQcb

[Reticence]

Whew. That was exhausting.

I am prepared for my D1 lynching.

[Largehorn]

Whew. That was exhausting.

I am prepared for my D1 lynching.

You had better be.... that's the second Largehorn game you've played where you won....

In fact, I think so far you have a 100% win rate in my games and playing an SK like role. XD

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Also....

Town MVP goes to Crackle for literally blocking every kill until his own death.

[Reticence]

In fact, I think so far you have a 100% win rate in my games and playing an SK like role. XD

That zombie game is still one of my favorites, if for no other reason than because I knew PistolPink was my master because I was targeted first.

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Town MVP goes to Crackle for literally blocking every kill until his own death.

This. Holy shit, that was a giant pain in the ass to deal with.

[Largehorn]

That zombie game is still one of my favorites, if for no other reason than because I knew PistolPink was my master because I was targeted first.

This. Holy shit, that was a giant pain in the ass to deal with.

Yeah that was a great game XD. Of course, town was pretty much screwed the second they lynched the one role that could reveal zombies. :S

I was getting worried that you or Virothe were going to riot because you couldn't get a kill through. Thankfully it didn't end up that way.

[Senna1251]

Game well played Ret, this was an entertaining game to watch.

[Kryllian]

Thanks for the game Large.

I'm honestly surprised that both SK's changed their N1 kills. I would have gone for the same target N2.