Not to be that guy but..[Ret gripe]

[worcester]

From a healer perspective, the mana blessing ret gives can't be overlooked. It's 12.5% additional mana regen and although that does not result in 12.5% more healing (as for most healers filler heals are generally their weakest) it's especially strong in long fights where starting mana and mana pot values are diminished. This is especially true if you have a disc/mw in your group who has the highest efficiency when converting excess mana to throughput.

I know most dps don't see it this way, but additional healing can be converted (at an unequal rate, usually 2:5) to damage on a fight with a tight enrage by cutting healers. Of course this highly depends on the damage pattern (i.e. vampiric embrace vs innervate better?). Bursty damage fights diminish the value of sustained healing from dps compared to sustained incoming damage where additional healing from any source is very relevant. This makes shadow priests, boomkins, rets better than their stock standard dps. Another thing that I particularly like about rets is their auto bubble, which allows healers to be more efficient healing them on bursty fights.

I'm not going to go and claim that 10% dps gap is okay, but would you take the 10% dps by giving up your blessings/durability/mobility/loh? I can tell you now survival hunters are not survivable at all, all their utility is offensive (aoe slows, roots, mobility, flare) which means nothing in NH, and all they bring is damage.

As for hc/mythic discrepancies, you guys shot yourselves in the foot by letting "Retribution" go live. Devs aren't omnipotent, they can't foresee everything and thus have to use empiric data to balance specs. Unfortunately, aggregate data which is used to balance are subject to public outcry (hunters got buffed when they didn't even need one because their hc parses were on the low end the first week of raids). The same data which is used from the first week obviously includes much higher than expected uptime on Retribution because it's the first week. On mythic, where 1 guy dying probably means a wipe... yeah you get the picture. I am thoroughly convinced that the 5-10% ret is behind on mythic is primarily caused by Retribution on hc.

[ThePants999]

log says this so my class must be shit OMGOMGOMG.. and in reality Palas do GREAT

Logs ARE reality. Or do you think someone out there is busy creating thousands of fake logs?

[Alvito]

hey man i said it was a gripe but these logs definitely have value the first two weeks of NH devs were using these numbers to depict that we were too strong and decided to nerf us. Its not the end all be all but they hold some weight here.

So few parses based on a few days or raiding. Only a handful of guilds have killed more then 3 or 4 bosses, nobody has killed the final one. You are putting the cart before the horse here.

[Deleted]

For most cases dps are being limited by the player skills. Never trust other players logs. Play the class you enjoy, push your own limits and improve.
Sure statistics shows stuff, but keep in mind that many who play class "x" are bad players, don't have the right gear , have wrong talent etc.
I have encountered sooo many bad players wearing good gear, claiming their class are bad/broken.

Another thing to consider is tier gear - some specs seems partly broken without it- which is a design flaw. Blizzard should move away from those set bonuses to improve balancing- or make them flat bonuses instead of mechanic changes....

[Teroo]

WE'RE SO BAD OMG, LITERALLY WORST DPS SPEC IN GAME

[Wutangrza]

I think it's important to realize that almost all guilds are currently 3/10M or less.

Using mythic as a sample size isn't really appropriate yet from a sample size perspective.

If I had to give feedback, I'd say our ST isn't great, our cleave is towards the top, and I just wish our entire parse wasn't determined by a few Crusade cooldowns and secretly hoping someone dies during our wings to proc our Retribution passive.

[Deleted]

WE'RE SO BAD OMG, LITERALLY WORST DPS SPEC IN GAME

GBoK and GBoW OP.

[bingbangpow]

ret paladin dmg is pretty bad right now

[FelPlague]

Thank god they "balanced" Ret Pallies before mythic eh?


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#

so... middle of the line...? cool?

[Deleted]

so... middle of the line...? cool?

Why cut off the variables on top?

[Ifeanychukwu]

Well to be fair, the only classes under Pally DPS wise are Classes that can change to a different DPS spec that is much higher.

You mean like balance/feral druids? :P

[Teroo]

GBoK and GBoW OP.

Yeah, sure


Exorsus Gul'dan DPS



Method Gul'dan DPS

[Kelhtor]

Ret is fine ... most people are just bad and cant face it

Thats all.

Now let the Flame War begin... come face me with your anger...

[Grusalugg]

From a healer perspective, the mana blessing ret gives can't be overlooked. It's 12.5% additional mana regen and although that does not result in 12.5% more healing (as for most healers filler heals are generally their weakest) it's especially strong in long fights where starting mana and mana pot values are diminished. This is especially true if you have a disc/mw in your group who has the highest efficiency when converting excess mana to throughput.

I know most dps don't see it this way, but additional healing can be converted (at an unequal rate, usually 2:5) to damage on a fight with a tight enrage by cutting healers. Of course this highly depends on the damage pattern (i.e. vampiric embrace vs innervate better?). Bursty damage fights diminish the value of sustained healing from dps compared to sustained incoming damage where additional healing from any source is very relevant. This makes shadow priests, boomkins, rets better than their stock standard dps. Another thing that I particularly like about rets is their auto bubble, which allows healers to be more efficient healing them on bursty fights.

I'm not going to go and claim that 10% dps gap is okay, but would you take the 10% dps by giving up your blessings/durability/mobility/loh? I can tell you now survival hunters are not survivable at all, all their utility is offensive (aoe slows, roots, mobility, flare) which means nothing in NH, and all they bring is damage.

As for hc/mythic discrepancies, you guys shot yourselves in the foot by letting "Retribution" go live. Devs aren't omnipotent, they can't foresee everything and thus have to use empiric data to balance specs. Unfortunately, aggregate data which is used to balance are subject to public outcry (hunters got buffed when they didn't even need one because their hc parses were on the low end the first week of raids). The same data which is used from the first week obviously includes much higher than expected uptime on Retribution because it's the first week. On mythic, where 1 guy dying probably means a wipe... yeah you get the picture. I am thoroughly convinced that the 5-10% ret is behind on mythic is primarily caused by Retribution on hc.

Your post is art.

[Deleted]

OMG, stop generalising like everything is bad. Linking gul'dan kills where you can cleave lots of stuff.

Its just the passive. It's unbalanced, it needs to go and our single target compensated for it because it suffered the most with the last 3 waves of nerfs where the passive is what should've been nerfed. Cleave fights, we are fine. It's besides the point.

This is what is truly worrying:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1842

Theres a difference of 150k DPS from top to bottom (100k from Ret to top), and despite of all the claimers of fine here, we are still the worst single target class. Everyone else has a better performing spec. Now, this added to the Ret passive IS a concern.
And btw, before you come say this is fine cause we got cleave/AoE, frost DK's have far more ST and more AoE than us... so, take that with the fine. Also, and this is directed at kelhtor, what you personally do, or anyone who post here is 100% irrelevant. The logs are the data, not you.

[Deleted]

W/e blessings are really weak and offer marginal to no niche.
If u boys happy with the way the spec is treated this expansion with the nonexistent talent rows the passive that brings nerds and buffs at the beginning and end of each tier and (someone could throw some maths here) the seemingly weakest version of raid buffs since vanilla then this surpasses me.

[Neldarie]

75%ile is pretty bad aswell need to go for 95%

Also since ret is a melee role it has to be compared to melees only and not overall. Guldan is prolly some sort of cleave fest if it somewhat resembles heroic mode, which is currently where rets shine best.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=95&boss=1842

[FelPlague]

Why cut off the variables on top?

sorry was just screenshotting exatcly what the op was linking so people cold see

[Teroo]

OMG, stop generalising like everything is bad. Linking gul'dan kills where you can cleave lots of stuff.

Its just the passive. It's unbalanced, it needs to go and our single target compensated for it because it suffered the most with the last 3 waves of nerfs where the passive is what should've been nerfed. Cleave fights, we are fine. It's besides the point.

This is what is truly worrying:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1842

Theres a difference of 150k DPS from top to bottom (100k from Ret to top), and despite of all the claimers of fine here, we are still the worst single target class. Everyone else has a better performing spec. Now, this added to the Ret passive IS a concern.
And btw, before you come say this is fine cause we got cleave/AoE, frost DK's have far more ST and more AoE than us... so, take that with the fine. Also, and this is directed at kelhtor, what you personally do, or anyone who post here is 100% irrelevant. The logs are the data, not you.

STOP. FUCKING. LINKING. LOGS. WITH. SO. LITTLE. FUCKING. DATA. DAMN.

Survival Hunter at the top with 4 parses - WOW THEY MUST BE SO GUD
Frost Mage 33 parses
Sub Rogue 32 parses

MUCH DATA WOW RET TRASH WOW


Why people can't fucking understand that most better guilds have private logs, and the data we have is totally worthless and only spread misinformation. We have to wait until we will have few hundred kills on each boss.

Also,
"ret worst dps single target"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

CAN'T. STOP. LAUGHING. XD

Like, seriously. Top guilds are bringing ret to the most brutal single target dps race boss (Star Augur) but our ST is bad. Good Joke Bro.

Guldan is prolly some sort of cleave fest if it somewhat resembles heroic mode, which is currently where rets shine best.

Most of the Nighthold fights are aoe

[Neldarie]

Most of the Nighthold fights are aoe

95% of that dmg is meaningless, come again.