Ukrainian Farmers, Poised for Growth, Stumble After E.U. Deal

[Puri]

Just letting that political bullcrap aside, food production and agriculture are highly regulated in the EU.
We already have a massive overproduction that also receives subsidies, so it's only logical they try to limit the amount of imported goods when signing new treaties. It's not like it's some hidden fine-print, people who sign treaties like that are fully aware of the consequences.

As to why there are so high subsidies for the agriculture in the EU (and limits to what we buy from the outside although importing goods from africa, asia, russia or south americ would be much cheaper) is simply because they have a large lobby, and additionally countries still want to maintain a fully working agriculture for self-sufficient farming. Food is the one ressouce no country wants to run out in case of trading problems and doesn't want to lose that part of the economy competely, although it would be highly commercially efficient to do so.
Recent events like Brexit and Trump's beginning protections show very clearly this might not be the dumbest thing to do.

[Pannonian]

They tried, Ukraine sent in the military, deposed the Crimean government, sacked the president, tore up the constitution and revoked all the laws guaranteeing Crimean Tatars equal rights.

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They can't join the EU, they'd get rejected.

That was 22 years ago, and yes it was shitty- still doesn't make a russian invasion legal.

[Kremzy]

Butthurt much?

Your aversion to freedom of speech has been duly noted. It is not as unique on these boards these days as it should be, I fear.

You're right dude, he's what we call VATA or Cutton-brain, w/e the media tells him he believes. AkA you can't win an argument with people who don't know shit

[caervek]

Recognition of illegal referendums, not so much.

The legality of the referendum was a huge grey area, it was legal under the Crimean constitution which had been illegally dissolved by Ukraine, who had no government when Crimea held their referendum, which means that although the supreme court of Ukraine ordered the dissolution of the supreme court of Crimea the day before the referendum (in order to stop Crimea having the legal right to sanction the referrendum) they had no legal power to do so.

As you can see, the whole thing is a giant cluster****. My take from it is that regardless of what Ukraine/Russia think/say/do the people concerned are happy with the outcome, so... happy end I guess /shrug.

Especially if you "recognize" such a referendum in a foreign territory you're already occupying, like Russia did. What exactly did they "recognize" to send soldiers to a region of another country prior to the act of self-determination that was the referendum?

How exactly did Russia send soldiers to Crimea? for reference it isn't actually connected to Russia, they would have needed to drive through Ukraine unseen or take a lot of boats. The soldiers you are most likely referring too are the ones stationed in Crimea on Russian bases (they were given an extended lease when Ukraine took over Crimea in the 90's) which had been there since it was Russia. Are you saying that once the coup in Kiev started the Russians in Crimea should all have jumped into the sea and swam away to avoid being the subject of conspiracy theories?

[rowaasr13]

let's not argue and whoever here has access to the Kremlin please bomb it, problem solved

That's "solution #1" in pretty much any time Ukrainian opens his mouth. And they still wonder why they're called Ukro-nazi and universally despised in Russia after they publicly shown their face.

My little would-be bomber, sorry, but there's at least three problems with your plan:
1) you'd be hanged by zrobitchane (guest workers) in a moment, once millions of them would be left without Russian money - the only source of income around your piss-poor territory.
2) Free presents and miracles ("somebody please do that") only happen in Gena's song in "Cheburashka" and your country's Anthem, which, strangely, sound very similar.
3) Blaming problems on Moscow is long-standing tradition since 1990 (well, way longer, actually, but let's talk about recent events). Do you remember "Хватит кормить москалей" ("Stop feeding muscovites"), you separatist? So, did it work?

[Flarelaine]

My take from it is that regardless of what Ukraine/Russia think/say/do the people concerned are happy with the outcome, so... happy end I guess /shrug.

I would certainly say I'm happy to any stranger if I was living in Putin's Russia.

How exactly did Russia send soldiers to Crimea? for reference it isn't actually connected to Russia, they would have needed to drive through Ukraine unseen or take a lot of boats. The soldiers you are most likely referring too are the ones stationed in Crimea on Russian bases (they were given an extended lease when Ukraine took over Crimea in the 90's) which had been there since it was Russia. Are you saying that once the coup in Kiev started the Russians in Crimea should all have jumped into the sea and swam away to avoid being the subject of conspiracy theories?

They could have stayed inside the base for a start.

[Pannonian]

The legality of the referendum was a huge grey area, it was legal under the Crimean constitution which had been illegally dissolved by Ukraine, who had no government when Crimea held their referendum, which means that although the supreme court of Ukraine ordered the dissolution of the supreme court of Crimea the day before the referendum (in order to stop Crimea having the legal right to sanction the referrendum) they had no legal power to do so.

As you can see, the whole thing is a giant cluster****. My take from it is that regardless of what Ukraine/Russia think/say/do the people concerned are happy with the outcome, so... happy end I guess /shrug.

If you argue with the original constitution of the autonomous crimean republic you are missing a key point. The original constitution of 1992 states that crimea is a part of Ukraine; Article 76 of the constitution of Ukraine demands that "Alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by an all-Ukrainian referendum." So even under the old constitution, the referendum was illegal - thats why a lot of nations dont accept it.- leaving aside the whole business with russia INVADING! another nation.

[Flarelaine]

That's "solution #1" in pretty much any time Ukrainian opens his mouth. And they still wonder why they're called Ukro-nazi and universally despised in Russia after they publicly shown their face.

My little would-be bomber, sorry, but there's at least three problems with your plan:
1) you'd be hanged by zrobitchane (guest workers) in a moment, once millions of them would be left without Russian money - the only source of income around your piss-poor territory.
2) Free presents and miracles ("somebody please do that") only happen in Gena's song in "Cheburashka" and your country's Anthem, which, strangely, sound very similar.
3) Blaming problems on Moscow is long-standing tradition since 1990 (well, way longer, actually, but let's talk about recent events). Do you remember "Хватит кормить москалей" ("Stop feeding muscovites"), you separatist? So, did it work?

Nation bashing in that tone is a good way to earn a vacation from the forum, in case you haven't noticed.

Also, oppressing a people for centuries, inflicting an invasion upon them after they finally break free and blaming them for being poor after all that is in poor taste to say the least. Yes, they are poor. Therefore it is only reasonable for them to want to join prosperous countries and hope for some assistance. I'm embarrassed as an EU citizen that the EU was not able to grow some balls and give Ukraine the helping hand they have been asking for.

[Aggrophobic]

They tried, Ukraine sent in the military, deposed the Crimean government, sacked the president, tore up the constitution and revoked all the laws guaranteeing Crimean Tatars equal rights.

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They can't join the EU, they'd get rejected.

There are steps they could take to make membership in the EU possible.
Now, they might not want to take thoes steps but thats their problem.

The OP is just trolling and turns every damn post into something against the EU or Germany, for whatever reason.
His own country would just be a hole in the ground if it wasn't for the EU.

Also, they can't just seced. If that was possible, you could just take a few hundred friends, move over to the US (or whatever country), buy a bit of land and transfer control of that land to whatever country you'd like. The world would be a mess.

[Pannonian]

Nation bashing in that tone is a good way to earn a vacation from the forum, in case you haven't noticed.

Also, oppressing a people for centuries, inflicting an invasion upon them after they finally break free and blaming them for being poor after all that is in poor taste to say the least. Yes, they are poor. Therefore it is only reasonable for them to want to join prosperous countries and hope for some assistance. I'm embarrassed as an EU citizen that the EU was not able to grow some balls and give Ukraine the helping hand they have been asking for.

Hey, wann join us again? we had such a great time together...

[caervek]

If you argue with the original constitution of the autonomous crimean republic you are missing a key point. The original constitution of 1992 states that crimea is a part of Ukraine

Actually that was added in later in exchange for Ukraine offering full autonomy, that ended when Ukraine sent the tanks in in 1995 after the referendum on dual Russian citizenship. One of the Crimeans arguments for the legality of the 2014 referendum is that that action by Ukraine voided both sides of the agreement.

[Deleted]

Why I am suspecting that if we hadn't made that deal, and did buy those cheap eggs, we'd have a thread on how the EU exploits Ukraine?

[caervek]

There are steps they could take to make membership in the EU possible.

In theory yes, in reality no.

A country with a population the size of Ukraine wouldn't be able to join the EU unless France first held a referendum on it, and the chance of that passing in the post-Brexit environment is slim to none.

[Flarelaine]

Hey, wann join us again? we had such a great time together...

I actually had Ukraine in mind when I wrote that, but what the heck? If you promise to reopen the prison at Kufstein. I've got some prime candidates.

[Pannonian]

Actually that was added in later in exchange for Ukraine offering full autonomy, that ended when Ukraine sent the tanks in in 1995 after the referendum on dual Russian citizenship. One of the Crimeans arguments for the legality of the 2014 referendum is that that action by Ukraine voided both sides of the agreement.

Afaik they added this line to the constitution before they had this exchange (about 2 weeks). Then they decided to ditch it altogether but because of the communists in the ukrainian parliament they still got their autonomous status.

But i will confess that the recent history of crimea is very confusing and a lot changed over time, so i can see why they argued that the new government was illegal. Up to this point everythings fine. A foreign power invading - not.

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I actually had Ukraine in mind when I wrote that, but what the heck? If you promise to reopen the prison at Kufstein. I've got some prime candidates.

Sure, wanna grab some balkans while we're at it?

[caervek]

But i will confess that the recent history of crimea is very confusing and a lot changed over time, so i can see why they argued that the new government was illegal. Up to this point everythings fine. A foreign power invading - not.

I actually agree that the soldiers providing "security" sucks, but I'm willing to let it slide for two reasons.

Firstly, because the last time Crimea held a referendum Ukraine sent in the tanks so this helped ensure democracy was protected (and it's probably the first time the Russian military has done that lol).

Secondly, because Crimea had previously voted overwhelmingly yes in two separate referendums for autonomy from Ukraine, one referendum for closer Russian integration and even voted to remain part of the USSR in the Ukrainian independence referendum. I see no reason to cast doubt on the result of the 2014 referendum as it's perfectly in keeping with expectations.

As I hinted too before I care more for Crimea's right to self determination than Ukraines right to oppression.

[Mehrunes]

The legality of the referendum was a huge grey area, it was legal under the Crimean constitution which had been illegally dissolved by Ukraine, who had no government when Crimea held their referendum, which means that although the supreme court of Ukraine ordered the dissolution of the supreme court of Crimea the day before the referendum (in order to stop Crimea having the legal right to sanction the referrendum) they had no legal power to do so.

As you can see, the whole thing is a giant cluster****. My take from it is that regardless of what Ukraine/Russia think/say/do the people concerned are happy with the outcome, so... happy end I guess /shrug.

Irrelevant. The legality of secessionist referendum doesn't somehow appear out of thin air because there is no government. Likewise, the power of the Supreme Court of Ukraine doesn't vanish into the ether just because the executive is in shambles. Separate powers are separate. And Ukraine could dissolve Crimean constitutions twice a day ever since declaring independence from USSR. Article 135 of Ukrainian Constitution outright says Crimean law has to be in accordance with Ukrainian law. So even if Crimean Constitution of 1992 allowed such a secession, the articles of it covering that topic were automatically illegal, as per Article 135 of Ukrainian Constitution, by being in breach of Ukrainian Constitution on the topic of secession, which is higher in legal hierarchy. And the Crimean Constitution of 1992 was dissolved only after Crimean government decided to create a new constitution for Crimea. Besides, Ukrainian Constitution doesn't provide any special protections to the Crimean Constitution in terms of its dissolving, it only has autonomic provisions in regards to its creation.

How exactly did Russia send soldiers to Crimea? for reference it isn't actually connected to Russia, they would have needed to drive through Ukraine unseen or take a lot of boats. The soldiers you are most likely referring too are the ones stationed in Crimea on Russian bases (they were given an extended lease when Ukraine took over Crimea in the 90's) which had been there since it was Russia. Are you saying that once the coup in Kiev started the Russians in Crimea should all have jumped into the sea and swam away to avoid being the subject of conspiracy theories?

Planes are a thing. And little green men say hi. Given how even Putin eventually confirmed them being Russian after months of denial, how about you take a hike and educate yourself on the topic instead of putting bullshit into my mouth? Also, even if all of them were somehow the ones stationed in Crimea, despite Putin saying otherwise, the Partition Agreement did not provide the Russian army with the right to create military checkpoints all over Crimea or send its troops to occupy the building of the Crimean Parliament (top notch referendum you got there under those circumstances).

[Flarelaine]

Sure, wanna grab some balkans while we're at it?

Maybe the nice bits up north. Not too much, that took us down last time.

[Kremzy]

That's "solution #1" in pretty much any time Ukrainian opens his mouth. And they still wonder why they're called Ukro-nazi and universally despised in Russia after they publicly shown their face.

My little would-be bomber, sorry, but there's at least three problems with your plan:
1) you'd be hanged by zrobitchane (guest workers) in a moment, once millions of them would be left without Russian money - the only source of income around your piss-poor territory.
2) Free presents and miracles ("somebody please do that") only happen in Gena's song in "Cheburashka" and your country's Anthem, which, strangely, sound very similar.
3) Blaming problems on Moscow is long-standing tradition since 1990 (well, way longer, actually, but let's talk about recent events). Do you remember "Хватит кормить москалей" ("Stop feeding muscovites"), you separatist? So, did it work?

That was a joke you pro-putin vata, as I said, our countries problems are our problems, you should worry about your own, which is famous btw for having bloody revolts, and from the looks of things that might happen soonish. If your government invades mine and your economy gets worse and worse from the shots called by the ruling hand (ergo the ordinary masses suffer) and you still support that, gz, you're brainwashed. At least I can go in the middle of my capital and call my president a greedy peace of @&$% and not get arrested for it lol.

[Mehrunes]

Also, they can't just seced. If that was possible, you could just take a few hundred friends, move over to the US (or whatever country), buy a bit of land and transfer control of that land to whatever country you'd like. The world would be a mess.

Pretty much this. Venice Commission's ruling said that the Crimean referendum of 2014 not only broke both Ukrainian and Crimean constitutions, but also some of the pretty much fundamental aspects of international law and missed the point of self-determination.

I actually agree that the soldiers providing "security" sucks, but I'm willing to let it slide for two reasons.

Firstly, because the last time Crimea held a referendum Ukraine sent in the tanks so this helped ensure democracy was protected (and it's probably the first time the Russian military has done that lol).

Perhaps if they didn't declare independence in breach of Ukrainian law and didn't hold illegal referendums despite them already being ruled as illegal by Ukraine prior to the referendum, Ukraine wouldn't have to act accordingly to uphold its law. Food for thought. Also, it's pretty funny you defend Crimea's actions by bringing up things like their stance being that Ukraine "voided both sides of the agreement" when Ukraine's actions in that event which supposedly did so were nothing more than Ukraine being reactionary to Crimea acting against said agreement.

Secondly, because Crimea had previously voted overwhelmingly yes in two separate referendums for autonomy from Ukraine, one referendum for closer Russian integration and even voted to remain part of the USSR in the Ukrainian independence referendum. I see no reason to cast doubt on the result of the 2014 referendum as it's perfectly in keeping with expectations.

Doesn't make it any more valid due to Russian interference. Or any more legal.

As I hinted too before I care more for Crimea's right to self determination than Ukraines right to oppression.

So as per Venice Comission you misinterpret self-determination in vein of Putin's propaganda. Splendid.

Sure, wanna grab some balkans while we're at it?

Just stay away from Ukraine. Poland (and Lithuania, I guess) can into Ruthenia once again! Actually, stay away from Hungary too. The marriage deal with Austria that lost Jagiellons Hungary and Bohemia was one of the top ten most idiotic actions this country has ever committed.