Russia calls Romania a 'clear threat' and Nato outpost for hosting US missile shield

[Kellhound]

So, if preliminary investigation was as definitive as they tried to show in the report, why classify the final findings and sources. Here is an alternative view of the investigation (by segodnya.ru, a ukrainian paper Segodnya.ua subsiduary that is located in Russia. Their chief editor was also incidentally shot and killed several months after the this report near his home in Kiev, in broad daylight, hours after another very similar assasination of an opposition party leader. With machine gun fire, 1930s mafia style)

Why classify the classified sources......

[zealo]

Who invaded us? NATO? You are insane.

It's just bait with an agenda calling Nato presence in the Balkan an invasion.

The more interesting question is really why all these Baltic and Balkan states happens to trust western/central Europe and the US more than they do Russia, on the matter of their own security. Nato didn't set up all over the region without their consent to it, especially when the main backbone of Nato is from a country that's on the other side of the globe, rather than right next to them.

[caervek]

Sigh... You are not listening are you... Official investigation results have been classified!

How can I put this, you're wrong, the information was released with the investigation report. That's how we know where the launch area was and that the data checks out.

[Gaaz]

How can I put this, you're wrong, the information was released with the investigation report. That's how we know where the launch area was and that the data checks out.

First of all, the result they presented on 28th of September 2016 was labeled as "preliminary".
Secondly, all pieces of evidence that contradicted this "preliminary" story was removed from the report. For example fuselage parts that showed glancing blows and ricoches
Third, none of the JIT tests were done using actual suspected missile, nor were they revealed. Despite the fact that Ukraine has hundreds of these available.
Fourth, you do not invite a suspect into a criminal investigation and give it the power to veto the findings. We do not know to what extent this power was used.
Fifth, we still do not know what this report is based on. Too much clearly falsified information was fed to us by Ukrainian government already. Evidence apparently is excluded for some unknown reasons and with no explanation.
I hope you see as to how some people may find this situation a little strange.
PS: Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, Elena Zerkal:
"it (the report) is classified and confidential and the results will not be presented for public discussion."

[TwistedSkull]

Russias opinion lost value since Ukraine...

[Easo]

It's just bait with an agenda calling Nato presence in the Balkan an invasion.

The more interesting question is really why all these Baltic and Balkan states happens to trust western/central Europe and the US more than they do Russia, on the matter of their own security. Nato didn't set up all over the region without their consent to it, especially when the main backbone of Nato is from a country that's on the other side of the globe, rather than right next to them.

Oh, trust me, I know, I just want to call them out on their bullshit.

But yes, they "conveniently" tend to... forget... the half century of occupation, deportations to Siberia (aka crimes against humanity by definition), executions, control of daily lives by Cheka (people continued to call the KGB chekists), russification, etc. Then, when the USSR crumbled, Russian army finally left only in 1994. August (in Latvia) and wanted to stay longer, BS accusations were brought up about attacks on convoys, etc. Then there still is the rhetoric from Russia, which has never stopped since we got our independence back. And from time to time there are very thinly veiled threats. Real example of peaceful country.

Yes, I wonder, why did we chose the West, by our own will, utilising the right of self determination as independent countries (seems these words are incomprehensible to Russia) xD

[Kellhound]

First of all, the result they presented on 28th of September 2016 was labeled as "preliminary".
Secondly, all pieces of evidence that contradicted this "preliminary" story was removed from the report. For example fuselage parts that showed glancing blows and ricoches
Third, none of the JIT tests were done using actual suspected missile, nor were they revealed. Despite the fact that Ukraine has hundreds of these available.
Fourth, you do not invite a suspect into a criminal investigation and give it the power to veto the findings. We do not know to what extent this power was used.
Fifth, we still do not know what this report is based on. Too much clearly falsified information was fed to us by Ukrainian government already. Evidence apparently is excluded for some unknown reasons and with no explanation.
I hope you see as to how some people may find this situation a little strange.
PS: Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, Elena Zerkal:
"it (the report) is classified and confidential and the results will not be presented for public discussion."

Most of us will go with the report from the experts that actually have the aircraft and the classified information over random pro-Russian rectum kissers' conspiracy theories. And yes the entire report is classified, but that does not mean they cannot reveal the non-classified portions of it.

[Skroe]

Because Russia wants to make our case so easy... breaking news.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/w...gtype=Homepage

Just as i've been talking about for the past few years, today is the day Russia has officially violated the INF Treaty.

WASHINGTON — Russia has secretly deployed a new cruise missile despite complaints from American officials that it violates a landmark arms control treaty that helped seal the end of the Cold War, administration officials say.

The move presents a major challenge for President Trump, who has vowed to improve relations with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia and to pursue future arms accords.

The new Russian missile deployment also comes as the Trump administration is struggling to fill key policy positions at the State Department and the Pentagon — and to settle on a permanent replacement for Michael T. Flynn, the national security adviser who resigned late Monday. Mr. Flynn stepped down after it was revealed that he had misled the vice president and other officials over conversations with Moscow’s ambassador to Washington.

The ground-launched cruise missile at the center of American concerns is one that the Obama administration said in 2014 had been tested in violation of a 1987 treaty that bans American and Russian intermediate-range missiles based on land.

The Obama administration had sought to persuade the Russians to correct the violation while the missile was still in the test phase. Instead, the Russians have moved ahead with the system, deploying a fully operational unit.

Administration officials said the Russians now have two battalions of the prohibited cruise missile. One is still located at Russia’s missile test site at Kapustin Yar in the country’s southeast.

The other was shifted in December from that test site to an operational base elsewhere in the country, according to a senior official who did not provide further details and requested anonymity to discuss recent intelligence reports about the missile.

American officials had called the cruise missile the SSC-X-8. But the “X” has been removed from current intelligence reports, indicating that American intelligence officials consider the missile to be operational and no longer a system in development.

The Russia missile program has been a major concern for the Pentagon, which has developed options for how to respond, including deploying additional missile defenses in Europe or developing air-based or sea-based cruise missiles.

But it is politically significant, as well.

It is very unlikely that the Senate, which is already skeptical of Mr. Putin’s intentions, would agree to ratify a new strategic arms control accord unless the alleged violation of the intermediate-range treaty is corrected. Mr. Trump has said the United States should “strengthen and expand its nuclear capability.” But at the same time, he has talked of reaching a new arms agreement with Moscow that would reduce arms “very substantially.”

The deployment of the system could also increase the military threat to NATO nations, which potentially would be one of the principal targets. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis is scheduled to meet with allied defense ministers in Brussels on Wednesday.

Before he left his post last year as the NATO commander and retired from the military, Gen. Philip M. Breedlove warned that deployment of the cruise missile would be a militarily significant development that “can’t go unanswered.”

Coming up with an arms control solution would not be easy.

Each missile battalion is believed to have four mobile launchers and a larger supply of missiles. The launcher for the cruise missile, however, closely resembles the launcher used for the Iskander, a nuclear-tipped short-range system that is permitted under treaties.

“This will make location and verification really tough,” General Breedlove said in an interview.

The Bush Administration discovered Russia's violation in it's earliest stages, back in 2006, and both they and the Obama Administration worked to encourage Russia to reobserve compliance. Failure to do so would basically force the US to redeploy intermediate range cruise missiles and ballistic missiles in Europe.

Today, Valentines Day 2017, is the day that effort publicly ended. Russia is in material breach of the treaty and the US must respond in kind by taking intermediate range weapons out of storage and deploying them to continental Europe.

[Gaaz]

Most of us will go with the report from the experts that actually have the aircraft and the classified information over random pro-Russian rectum kissers' conspiracy theories. And yes the entire report is classified, but that does not mean they cannot reveal the non-classified portions of it.

Ok, I get it. As long as it is anti russian, you are fine with whatever bullshit is poured into your ears. As for me, I am actually very interested as to why evidence from actual missile manifacturer was not taken into account or mentioned at all in the report. If it was wonkey, they could have at least mentioned it, instead of removing parts of the aircraft from the exhibition, the ones that did not support the "official story". Antey-Alms (or whatever the name is) tests, using actual missile in question, painted a very different picture. All was recorded and documented. But right now, it seems like JIT is going the WMD in Iraq route of evidence and "expert" opinion.

[Kellhound]

Ok, I get it. As long as it is anti russian, you are fine with whatever bullshit is poured into your ears. As for me, I am actually very interested as to why evidence from actual missile manifacturer was not taken into account or mentioned at all in the report. If it was wonkey, they could have at least mentioned it, instead of removing parts of the aircraft from the exhibition, the ones that did not support the "official story". Antey-Alms (or whatever the name is) tests, using actual missile in question, painted a very different picture. All was recorded and documented. But right now, it seems like JIT is going the WMD in Iraq route of evidence and "expert" opinion.

It is obvious the potential for the testing to have been performed in a classified manner is preventing it from being released to the public never crosses your mind. You are just fixated on anything that might clear Russia of involvement.

[CostinR]

The Bush Administration discovered Russia's violation in it's earliest stages, back in 2006, and both they and the Obama Administration worked to encourage Russia to reobserve compliance. Failure to do so would basically force the US to redeploy intermediate range cruise missiles and ballistic missiles in Europe.

Today, Valentines Day 2017, is the day that effort publicly ended. Russia is in material breach of the treaty and the US must respond in kind by taking intermediate range weapons out of storage and deploying them to continental Europe.

I am certain it's no coincidence that as soon as Flynn is fired that this comes to light. The naivety that has marked US-Russian relations for years should finally end, and good riddance given the things Russia has been doing in Kaliningrad, Moldova, Belarus and the Baltics.

[Gaaz]

It is obvious the potential for the testing to have been performed in a classified manner is preventing it from being released to the public never crosses your mind. You are just fixated on anything that might clear Russia of involvement.

The thing is, actual missile tests were not classified. More so, they were filmed and presented to limited public review. That is how we know that JIT did not use actual missile in question, and instead used a US made anti-air missile. Russian tests you can probably just google, they are relatively easy to find.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...native-6627316
I am not buying all the "hush-hush, we know who did this but we will not tell you how or why. And these pieces of evidence that paint a different picture, we will just hide somewhere in storage, no need to see them". Especially coming from one of the suspects of the crime. And especially after journalists that assembled and posted a different version are killed in broad daylight in Ukraine's capital city. I am actually wondering now if our courts of law operate with similar investigation competency levels. I mean it is hilarious and terrifying at the same time. The persecutor just tells that the defendant is guilty and sweep all the contradicting evidence under the rug. That is it - case solved.

[Kellhound]

The thing is, actual missile tests were not classified. More so, they were filmed and presented to limited public review. That is how we know that JIT did not use actual missile in question, and instead used a US made anti-air missile. Russian tests you can probably just google, they are relatively easy to find.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...native-6627316
I am not buying all the "hush-hush, we know who did this but we will not tell you how or why. And these pieces of evidence that paint a different picture, we will just hide somewhere in storage, no need to see them". Especially coming from one of the suspects of the crime. And especially after journalists that assembled and posted a different version are killed in broad daylight in Ukraine's capital city. I am actually wondering now if our courts of law operate with similar investigation competency levels. I mean it is hilarious and terrifying at the same time. The persecutor just tells that the defendant is guilty and sweep all the contradicting evidence under the rug. That is it - case solved.

Yet you believe the staged demonstration from Russia (which is of marginal use anyway given the lack of relative movement and having most of the (dissimilar) airframe missing) and a couple of similar holes (out of hundreds if not thousands) as proof Ukraine did it. Granted Russia is one of the prime suspects and the missile manufacturer is owned by the Russian government, so there is obviously no reason to remove blame from Russia

Oh, and it is known that classified tests of SA-11s took place during the investigation.

[Deleted]

Having something parked means it needs time to be operable. Loading a tomahawk in the aegis it means they can fire it in a moment's notice. I think neither would be easy to do and most probably the Russians will know, so you might as well load the tomahawk.

Why would a few extra minutes be critical? It will take the wepon almost a hour to reach targets in Russia? The only time it will be critical is if the "launch pad" comes under attack and its use it or lose it. that scenario suggests a Russia first strike.

Is that what you are afraid off? That a Russian first strike will not be decisive?

[Kellhound]

Why would a few extra minutes be critical? It will take the wepon almost a hour to reach targets in Russia? The only time it will be critical is if the "launch pad" comes under attack and its use it or lose it. that scenario suggests a Russia first strike.

Is that what you are afraid off? That a Russian first strike will not be decisive?

He's worried about a few TLAMs tipping the balance of power when the US launched ~800 of them against Iraq in 2003. I would think that Russia has more high value targets than Iraq had......

[Gaaz]

Yet you believe the staged demonstration from Russia (which is of marginal use anyway given the lack of relative movement and having most of the (dissimilar) airframe missing) and a couple of similar holes (out of hundreds if not thousands) as proof Ukraine did it. Granted Russia is one of the prime suspects and the missile manufacturer is owned by the Russian government, so there is obviously no reason to remove blame from Russia

Oh, and it is known that classified tests of SA-11s took place during the investigation.

So, Russia does not classify SA-11 tests, weapons manifacturer does not classify these tests, yet for some reason the JIT needs to classify the results? Perfect logic. Better keep all those russian secrets intact.
JIT specifically instructed the russian side as to how to perform these tests. And they resulted in a different damage pattern from the wreckage. Yet, this is to be ignored? Ok, I get it. We just appoint the guilty side and try to stage all the evidence towards that versoin. If any facts contradict that story, too bad for them. Nice way of thinking.
Why do I get the WMD vibes all over again?...

[Kellhound]

So, Russia does not classify SA-11 tests, weapons manifacturer does not classify these tests, yet for some reason the JIT needs to classify the results? Perfect logic. Better keep all those russian secrets intact.
JIT specifically instructed the russian side as to how to perform these tests. And they resulted in a different damage pattern from the wreckage. Yet, this is to be ignored? Ok, I get it. We just appoint the guilty side and try to stage all the evidence towards that versoin. If any facts contradict that story, too bad for them. Nice way of thinking.
Why do I get the WMD vibes all over again?...

Why classify something you have staged to "prove" your innocence?

Besides, it is highly suspected the real proof of launch location was provided by US IR sats, and that data would be TS/SCI.

[Gaaz]

Why classify something you have staged to "prove" your innocence?

Besides, it is highly suspected the real proof of launch location was provided by US IR sats, and that data would be TS/SCI.

Yes, yes, I get it. Dismiss everything that does not fit and explain everything with top secret evidence no one is allowed to see.

[Kellhound]

Yes, yes, I get it. Dismiss everything that does not fit and explain everything with top secret evidence no one is allowed to see.

A staged propaganda move by the Russians, or a known capability of a system I know about....hmmm.... I will go with the professionals I know over the ones I dont. I can understand what is actually being provided and what (and why) is not. I also know the major short comings of the mostly worthless test the Russians performed.

[Ulmita]

Why would a few extra minutes be critical? It will take the wepon almost a hour to reach targets in Russia? The only time it will be critical is if the "launch pad" comes under attack and its use it or lose it. that scenario suggests a Russia first strike.

Is that what you are afraid off? That a Russian first strike will not be decisive?

No, listen and try to understand.
That installation is ONLY dangerous if USA decides to strike first. (If Russia launches first an attack, its completely not an issue.)
How is so?

Simple:
USA is capable of completely taking out the Russian Naval Fleet + Base of the Black Sea in a surprise attack within a few minutes of launching. This by its self is a HUGE deal because right now as we speak because of that base, black sea can be blockaded and be sanitized from USA / NATO ships with minimum effort (since there is a bottle neck in the straits). So in other word their south / western flank is extremely vulnerable to a surprise attack. The reaction time given is basically tiny, almost guaranteeing the successful destruction of Russian assets in Sevastopol.