Why can't bolvar not just order all of scourge to kill themselves

[Friendlyimmolation]

I will await with bated breath your source on that one. Or not, since you don't have one, but we DO have plenty of sources from WC3 and TFT that show that Ner'zhul's range was not unlimited. He had a hard time even keeping all of what would be the Forsaken under control and that was WITH powerful lieutenants (Kel'thuzad, Arthas) there to enforce his power and will. The moment he took even a tiny hit to his power, (when the Frozen Throne was cracked) he lost control of what would become the Forsaken and the undead in the Plaguelands

Maybe read the Arthas book? That would be a good thing to read because Sylvanas hears his voice clearly.

None, actually. I never said that Bovlar could do things Ner'zhul could not. I simply pointed out that you were incorrect in your flawed assertion that the Dreadlords could simply take the Scourge away from the Lich King at will. In fact, if you go back and look, i point out that one of the reasons that Bolvar enlists the aid of the Ebon Blade is precisely because he cant reliably control the Scourge when they get too far away from Northrend (which is why he doesn't have control of the undead in the Plaguelands) and he doesn't want to unleash the Scourge because they would just wash over the world like a wave and kill literally everything. In fact, if anything, Bolvar's level of power is more likely to be equivalent to that of the Ner'zhul Lich King, I.E. less powerful than Arthas.

So, you contradict yourself "Dreadlords can't take the lich king's army away" followed by "hes just as strong a Ner'zhul', who did lose control of the scourge and only regained it once the legion was flattened.

P.S, Bolvar does want to unleash the scourge, the player tells him to fuck off.

I have no particular stake in Bolvar as an NPC. I do have a stake in not inventing things out of whole cloth to fit your head-narrative, which is all you seem capable of.

and you do this by following it up with your own opinon that you try to pass off as fact.

But can Dreadlords just "take the scourge away from him" - no. Not remotely. There's no lore of any kind to back that up. Otherwise they already would have. Literally thousands of Dreadlords are on Azeroth right now. If they could just go take the (literally endless) armies of the Scourge away from Bolvar... they would have.

Demons play with the undead from a lich king stronger than Arthas. The only reason they havent is because of plot armor, the saving grace of the player character since 2004. If you want to base your arguments off of "well if they could do it, they would and we'd be dead" WoW's story would have ended a long time ago.

[Kagthul]

Maybe read the Arthas book? That would be a good thing to read because Sylvanas hears his voice clearly.

And yet.. he can't control her. I assume you had a point here? Then again, since you haven't made a single valid point yet, i guess not.

So, you contradict yourself "Dreadlords can't take the lich king's army away" followed by "hes just as strong a Ner'zhul', who did lose control of the scourge and only regained it once the legion was flattened.

Lets try this again:

Provide a source that the Dreadlords managed to take anything other than the Scourge standing around in Lordaeron (and not even all of them, or there'd have been none during TFT)... or admit that you're just making shit up to suit your head-canon. Because thats all you've got. There Is. No. Evidence. To. Back. Your. Claim.

P.S, Bolvar does want to unleash the scourge, the player tells him to fuck off.

Source? No? Thought so. Played the whole DK campaign, sonny. He never says that, nor does the Deathlord tell him to "fuck off". He does tell you, though, that if you (the heroes) cant defeat the Legion, he will unleash the Scourge as a sorta of last-ditch option.

and you do this by following it up with your own opinon that you try to pass off as fact.

Really? Every single thing i've said is in-game. Every last one. Literally NOTHING you've said is in the game.

Demons play with the undead from a lich king stronger than Arthas.

.... in some speculative future that never happens where we dont even know what happened to the Lich King in question (he may already be dead - do we know? Or maybe he's down the Legion? Do you know? No? Because there are no details? Oh, yeah, there aren't) There are more questions than answers. Way to take one line, twist it, and make it say what you want it to say though. Thats some epic head-canon shit.

The only reason they havent is because of plot armor, the saving grace of the player character since 2004. If you want to base your arguments off of "well if they could do it, they would and we'd be dead" WoW's story would have ended a long time ago.

And now we fall back onto the tired "because plot armor" excuse. That's not an argument. Thats just you trying to divert attention from the fact that you've basically done nothing but drivel out your own headcanon and added absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Time for you to head to the ignore pile, with the rest of the trash.

[Aquamonkey]

.... in some speculative future that never happens where we dont even know what happened to the Lich King in question (he may already be dead - do we know?

That doesn't make any sense. Why would the LK randomly die on a world conquered by the Scourge?

[Friendlyimmolation]

And yet.. he can't control her. I assume you had a point here? Then again, since you haven't made a single valid point yet, i guess not.

yet again making it obvious you never actually read it. Arthas didn't want her mindless.

Lets try this again:

Provide a source that the Dreadlords managed to take anything other than the Scourge standing around in Lordaeron (and not even all of them, or there'd have been none during TFT)... or admit that you're just making shit up to suit your head-canon. Because thats all you've got. There Is. No. Evidence. To. Back. Your. Claim.

So once again you have nothing, Nowhere is it ever said it was only the scourge in Lordaeron that the dreadlords took control of. Archimonde didn't tell the dreadlords to "only take over the scourge in lordaeron" He told them to take over the scourge. So the burden of proof is on you to spew anything other than this angry headcanon.

Source? No? Thought so. Played the whole DK campaign, sonny. He never says that, nor does the Deathlord tell him to "fuck off". He does tell you, though, that if you (the heroes) cant defeat the Legion, he will unleash the Scourge as a sorta of last-ditch option

The only reason he does not unleash the scourge is because the deathknights work with him again. He wanted to unleash the scourge because it bullies the DKs into working with him. He does also threaten to unleash the scourge if you fail, bravo!

Really? Every single thing i've said is in-game. Every last one. Literally NOTHING you've said is in the game.

Alright, go ahead and point out where Archimonde only took control of the scourge in lordaeron for starters.

.... in some speculative future that never happens where we dont even know what happened to the Lich King in question (he may already be dead - do we know? Or maybe he's down the Legion? Do you know? No? Because there are no details? Oh, yeah, there aren't) There are more questions than answers. Way to take one line, twist it, and make it say what you want it to say though. Thats some epic head-canon shit.

The lich king in that world was not dead the scourge wiped out everything, hell if the lich king did die and the scourge were still being played with that just makes my argument stronger doesn't it? Lich king stronger than any we seen in a potential future and the demons still come out on top. Aside from the delightful ravings about headcanon you haven't actually proven anything.

And now we fall back onto the tired "because plot armor" excuse. That's not an argument. Thats just you trying to divert attention from the fact that you've basically done nothing but drivel out your own headcanon and added absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Time for you to head to the ignore pile, with the rest of the trash.

You literally were moaning about how if (X) was so powerful why didnt the players lose? Not only is it one of the dumbest things to ask, of course the players will never lose. So aside from being worked up, you proved nothing.

Time for you to head to the ignore pile, with the rest of the trash.

" I cry head-canon the moment I wasn't readily agreed with!"

Your two biggest points are that

Bolvar magically could keep the scourge from the legion when we see that archimonde had the dreadlords take the scourge from Ner'zhul the burden of proof is still with you to show it was only the scourge of Lordaeron (Screaming headcanon isn't an argument)

The other (and more hilarious) thing you said is that by somehow pointing out the plot-armor of the pc character, my whole argument is flawed? You do know what game we are playing right? But do go ahead and ignore me, I'm sure that counts as a win in your book.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Don't think it works like that lol.

[faithbane]

The reason Bolvar isn't as strong of a Lich King is because he was just a paladin who put on the Helm. That's where all his necromantic power comes from.

Arthas was so much stronger because at the time of becoming Lich King, he was a death knight of unparalleled skill, including expertise in necromancy. He also had Frostmourne and the Plate of the Damned (which is only mentioned in the RPG, but it was part of Ner'zhul's armor, I'm pretty sure, in WC3, so it must have some powerful significance).

TCG artwork also indicates that several other facets of Arthas' WotLK gear were originally part of Ner'zhul's prison too, like the skull kneepads and shoulders.


So, Arthas was already very good at necromancy when he got the Helm and rest of the gear that amplified his power exponentially, while Bolvar knew absolutely nothing about necromancy and only had the Helm.

That's why Bolvar can't control the Lordaeron (and Razorfen Downs) Scourge, because his power doesn't extend that far. And (I think) that's also why the Ebon Blade tell Bolvar he and the Scourge should stay in Northrend, not come to the Broken Isles.

In the original lore, nerzuls spirit is bound to the whole armor. You can see it if you play the WC3 games, it has helm/chest/shin guard etc.. the whole deal. That armor was suppose to be the prison while "the frozen throne" he was encased in was actually not the prison but some magic nether crystal that KJ put him in to boost nerzhuls powers tremendously in all aspects of magic including necromancy and telepathy. So the irony if his crystal prison was that if he tried to leave it he would lose a good chunk of his powers. He needed that power to hold control over undead that were separated by huge distances and raise undead from afar. KJ actually left dreadlords behind as Nerzhuls jailors, realizing how strong of a "prison" he created and he was too powerful now to be left unsupervised..

Sorry I was trying to set the background for my point but I realize its a lot.. The problem in LK story is during WC3 campaign Ilidan tries to use eye of sargeras' magic to destroy the ice crown where LK resides and he damages icecrown and the crystal LK was sitting in which causes, LK to lose some of his powers and control over some undead in lordaeron hence the forsaken is born. Now fast forward to the end of WC3 Frozen throne, Arthas shatters the whole crystal and puts the helm on to merge with LK etc etc, however He is somehow even stronger then before although earlier a crack in the crystal caused him to lose control over undead of Lordaeron?!

Now another flash forward to WOTLK expansion and after Bolvar puts the helm on, he goes on and sits on the throne and traps himself in ICE?! but that ice is not the nether crystal that KJ but LK in since Arthas shattered it years ago? So why the fuck does he even trap himself in that ice? How did LK not lose a ton of his powers after removing himself from the crystal? I'm sorry if there is a book now that contradicts what that ice prison was but the WC3 dialogues and WC3 game is still out there to play showing all this...

[Irian]

As far as I know in a dev interview (and someone has likely already quoted it, if so ignore this) it's canon that for the most part, the scourge is in fact "inactive". Although recent Legion lore contradicts that just a little bit, you could argue the Scourge has again become active because of the fact that the Legion has returned and Bolvar sees imminent need for him to defend himself if the Ebon Blade and the other forces of Azeroth fail.

But, to reply more cynically...because Blizzard didn't want to give up the Scourge as a faction and/or plot tool.

[Magnagarde]

Read some posts about the Scarlet Crusade.

The Scarlet Crusade are essentially the first organization that rose from what survivors the Alliance of Lordaeron had. In that sense, they were a force of resistance consisting of dwarven, human and high elven forces. It has a huge symbolic meaning for the Alliance. It is now known to all of the Alliance that they've been corrupted by Balnazzar and they're no longer oblivious to this; it was the members of the Scarlet Crusade that actually sent Alliance adventurers to route out the evil and the Alliance even kept diplomatic ties with it. Many of them were oblivious to everything that is going on at the SM and the Scarlet Enclave(ie the emissary at Nijel's point in Desolace).

It is safe to say that any and all survivors of the Scarlet Crusade - that survived both their leadership, the Forsaken and the Scourge - would be welcomed and integrated into Alliance societies. If the Horde can proudly accept green-skinned fel orcs because "they changed" - even though they're guilty of dooming one and invading another world - then the Alliance can accept former citizen of the various kingdoms of the Alliance of Lordaeron that were manipulated/slaughtered into zealotry by a dreadlord whose masters actually created the undead in the first place.

[Extremity]

I thought he lost his memory and is in Ooo now.

[Aquamonkey]

In the original lore, nerzuls spirit is bound to the whole armor. You can see it if you play the WC3 games, it has helm/chest/shin guard etc.. the whole deal. That armor was suppose to be the prison while "the frozen throne" he was encased in was actually not the prison but some magic nether crystal that KJ put him in to boost nerzhuls powers tremendously in all aspects of magic including necromancy and telepathy. So the irony if his crystal prison was that if he tried to leave it he would lose a good chunk of his powers. He needed that power to hold control over undead that were separated by huge distances and raise undead from afar. KJ actually left dreadlords behind as Nerzhuls jailors, realizing how strong of a "prison" he created and he was too powerful now to be left unsupervised..

The original lore mentioned nothing about the armor. The ice was the prison.

Ner’zhul’s spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether.
[...]
Keeping the Lich King bodiless and trapped within the crystal cask assured his good conduct for the short term, but the demon knew that he would need to keep a watchful eye on the Lich King.
--WC3 manual

[Magnagarde]

I think he is simply wondering about the purpose of these pieces of armor? Surely they must've been encasked in ice at the same time as the helmet. Where are they? Arthas didn't take them. I guess they've simply retconned this without bring it up.

[Deleted]

The simple solution is that they're a force that could be used against threats to Azeroth in the future. It's not like the big factions want to do much of anything in Northrend after the critical campaign, do they? It's quite inhospitable.

[faithbane]

The original lore mentioned nothing about the armor. The ice was the prison.

Ner’zhul’s spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether.
[...]
Keeping the Lich King bodiless and trapped within the crystal cask assured his good conduct for the short term, but the demon knew that he would need to keep a watchful eye on the Lich King.
--WC3 manual

Are you serious?! Literally the second half of the fucking sentence you cut out from the manual explains how that ice from the twisting nether boosted his powers.

"Ner'zhul's spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. Encased within the frozen cask, Ner'zhul felt his consciousness expand ten thousand fold."

Also from the Frozen throne manual, it explains while just rupturing the ice he was in made him lose some of his powers:

" Though he did not succeed in destroying the throne, Illidan's spell did rupture it. As a result, the Lich King began losing his power daily."

[iamthedevil]

A little off topic, but wouldn't it be awesome for the Lich King to assault the Legion personally? Imagine a cutscene where the Lich King just utterly destroys an entire battalion of demons.

[Aquamonkey]

Are you serious?! Literally the second half of the fucking sentence you cut out from the manual explains how that ice from the twisting nether boosted his powers.

"Ner'zhul's spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. Encased within the frozen cask, Ner'zhul felt his consciousness expand ten thousand fold."

Also from the Frozen throne manual, it explains while just rupturing the ice he was in made him lose some of his powers:

" Though he did not succeed in destroying the throne, Illidan's spell did rupture it. As a result, the Lich King began losing his power daily."

Umm... yes... the ice boosted ner'zhul's powers, but it was also the prison. There was no mention of the armor.

[Zulkhan]

If the Horde can proudly accept green-skinned fel orcs because "they changed" - even though they're guilty of dooming one and invading another world

First of all, being fel tainted (green-skinned) does not make you a "fel orc". Secondly, the orcs are the Horde; all the other races that joined later simply widened that core, let alone most of those "proudly accepted" orcs belong to Thrall's generation rather than Grom's or Orgrim's.

[MatadorMedia]

The Scourge are his people now. Bolvar is not going to mass genocide his entire population, obviously.

[faithbane]

Umm... yes... the ice boosted ner'zhul's powers, but it was also the prison. There was no mention of the armor.

Not in the WC3 manual no, but if you play the game, Kelthuzad narrator how frostmourne, helm of domination and the plate of cant remember..damnation I think? were all created by dread lords/demons and were powerful artifacts also used to boost his powers and hold him in his prison. The manual of warcraft RPG page from before WoW came out also mentions it.

If you play the Arthas campaign, it actually explains that he hurled frostmourne out of the prison(somehow.. not explained) but it was still a part of LK which is why Arthas started hearing his whispers through the weapon although he wasn't killed and raised as undead. end of the WC3 frozen throne campaign, only after he puts the helm on, his eyes turn blue and nerzhul sais "now we are one". Anyway drifting away from my point but messy lore is messy and contradictory was my original point anyway

[Aquamonkey]

Not in the WC3 manual no, but if you play the game, Kelthuzad narrator how frostmourne, helm of domination and the plate of cant remember..damnation I think? were all created by dread lords/demons and were powerful artifacts also used to boost his powers and hold him in his prison.

Kel'Thuzad says nothing about the helm or the armor during WC3. Plate of the Damned is only mentioned in the non-canon RPG.

The manual of warcraft RPG page from before WoW came out also mentions it.

RPG is not canon.

If you play the Arthas campaign, it actually explains that he hurled frostmourne out of the prison(somehow.. not explained)

Yes, the ice was the prison, not the armor.

[faithbane]

Kel'Thuzad says nothing about the helm or the armor during WC3. Plate of the Damned is only mentioned in the non-canon RPG.


RPG is not canon.


Yes, the ice was the prison, not the armor.

Stop cutting parts of the sentences to make up a point that fits you, this is not fox news. Also RPG is not cannon? you know WoW is an RPG right lol? Or you mean specifically the manual of WARCRAFT RPG that was created by blizzard and updated to include the new wow monsters as the MMO/expansions were released which was overseen by Chris Metzen and Wow design team is not canon? K bye.