Is it Time to Change the 14 Amendment?

[NED funded]

Nanook, the unemployment rates are nearly the lowest in the world - and you still complain about the immigrants stealing jobs? How did that happen, that in the years of an administration that was the most favorable towards illegal immigrants in the US history the unemployment rates have dropped in a black pit? Something is wrong with your theory, don't you think?

He must be refering to wages. But blaming the lack of compensation of labour to immigrants seems foolish at best. Considering that the effect isn't really that high and other sectors less affected by competition with foreign born citizens are in the same situation.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Its amazing all the idiots who have not thought this through... at all....

Lets assume for a moment that Trump can wave a magic wand and tomorrow every illegal immigrant is deported and his insanely expensive wall is instantly built.

1) Your farming industry is devastated to the point of collapse.
2) Your restaurant and food service industry is crippled.
3) Docks and Airports are critically low staffed.
4) You have a staggering new cost to absorb in wall maintenance and staffing

Oh, but we can hire Americans to do that! WRONG.

1) The average American does not WANT to do menial labor, and they certainly don't want to do it for less then "what they are worth".
2) Mandated population resettlement (since there will be nowhere near enough people in rural areas to DO the farmwork once the deportations are done, or enough low skilled willing laborers in a given area) will hardly go over well.
3) The time it will take to move, train and implement all those people (if you could even find them), will take decades, time you simply will not have.

Trumps plan will literally destroy America, what food you have will cost far more, goods flowing in will screech to almost a standstill, construction projects will see prices skyrocket and you will need to find millions more in spending to pay for the wall. By the time you could replace all the Mexicans with Americans, there will be no America left.

[nanook12]

Nanook, the unemployment rates are nearly the lowest in the world - and you still complain about the immigrants stealing jobs? How did that happen, that in the years of an administration that was the most favorable towards illegal immigrants in the US history the unemployment rates have dropped in a black pit? Something is wrong with your theory, don't you think?

It is also interesting how many people in the US care only about their own wallet, somehow forgetting the fact that "dirty job-takers" are also humans and also have their lives and needs.

That is miss leading. Work force participation rates have been very low the past few years. Basically, it means that there are not many people in the job market, so the unemployment rate is artificially low. If there were as many people participating in the work force as there was in 2008, then the unemployment rate would be closer to 9-11%.

[Shadowferal]

How is disagreement with laws specific to the left or the right?

Because the GOP ideal has ever been against immigration unless it's specified (white rich applied)
How are you not familiar with the many times that they've tried to change the 14th Amendment? Citizenship Clause, Equal Protection Clause...those two clauses in particular were vilified by right-wingers.

[May90]

He must be refering to wages. But blaming the lack of compensation of labour to immigrants seems foolish at best. Considering that the effect isn't really that high and other sectors less affected by competition with foreign born citizens are in the same situation.

I am not even sure the effect is there at all. I can understand the basic argument that a person coming from a poor country is willing to work hard for lower wages than the native citizens, but, for the most part, there are laws in place (such as minimum state wage, or anti-discrimination laws) preventing that from leading to any noticeable practical difference. The premise that the US employers just hire unqualified force and exploit them, while paying them very little, is pretty far from reality: some shady businesses do that, but it is not really legal, and it hardly affects the legal market.

That is miss leading. Work force participation rates have been very low the past few years. Basically, it means that there are not many people in the job market, so the unemployment rate is artificially low. If there were as many people participating in the work force as there was in 2008, then the unemployment rate would be closer to 9-11%.
[IMG]http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/559532a3ecad04962459c9a9-1200-900/labor-force-participation-rate-june-2015.png[IMG]

If there were more people on the job market, then the job market would adjust to that difference. You can't just deduct percentages like that, the market isn't a static entity.

[Sky High]

That is miss leading. Work force participation rates have been very low the past few years. Basically, it means that there are not many people in the job market, so the unemployment rate is artificially low. If there were as many people participating in the work force as there was in 2008, then the unemployment rate would be closer to 9-11%.
[IMG]http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/559532a3ecad04962459c9a9-1200-900/labor-force-participation-rate-june-2015.png[IMG]

tell me, did workforce participation drop because of illegals taking jobs or....something else?

[Wells]

That is miss leading. Work force participation rates have been very low the past few years. Basically, it means that there are not many people in the job market, so the unemployment rate is artificially low. If there were as many people participating in the work force as there was in 2008, then the unemployment rate would be closer to 9-11%.

You think workforce participation rates have fallen because of illegal immigration? Really?

[nanook12]

tell me, did workforce participation drop because of illegals taking jobs or....something else?

If people cannot get jobs due to unfair competition, then they get discouraged and simply drop out of the workforce. This leaves a smaller portion of workers in the workforce, and it makes unemployment rates artificially low. Pretty basic and straight forward reasoning actually. Not difficult to grasp.

[Sky High]

If people cannot get jobs due to unfair competition, then they get discouraged and simply drop out of the workforce.

that's not what I asked. I asked you if there were any OTHER factors that contributed to workforce participation dropping at that time in 2008.

[NED funded]

That is miss leading. Work force participation rates have been very low the past few years. Basically, it means that there are not many people in the job market, so the unemployment rate is artificially low. If there were as many people participating in the work force as there was in 2008, then the unemployment rate would be closer to 9-11%.

Wouldn't that be, because baby boomers are retiring and more people pursue higher education?Other factors like that A much better graph would be something that is age specific.

Something like this:


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I am not even sure the effect is there at all. I can understand the basic argument that a person coming from a poor country is willing to work hard for lower wages than the native citizens, but, for the most part, there are laws in place (such as minimum state wage, or anti-discrimination laws) preventing that from leading to any noticeable practical difference. The premise that the US employers just hire unqualified force and exploit them, while paying them very little, is pretty far from reality: some shady businesses do that, but it is not really legal, and it hardly affects the legal market.


If there were more people on the job market, then the job market would adjust to that difference. You can't just deduct percentages like that, the market isn't a static entity.

More competition, immigrants do not have much bargaining power so they settle for wages offered by the employer, ofc this does not mean they are modern slaves as many seem to believe. A farm worker has a median wage of 11$/h and the company offers them a bunch of benefits.

[Wells]

If people cannot get jobs due to unfair competition, then they get discouraged and simply drop out of the workforce. This leaves a smaller portion of workers in the workforce, and it makes unemployment rates artificially low. Pretty basic and straight forward reasoning actually. Not difficult to grasp.

So that's a yes? You think work force participation is dropping because of immigration?

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I mean seriously Nanook, this is magical thinking at its finest. Your own argument isn't even internally consistent because the illegal immigration population has been static for years.

[Zan15]

Elementary my dear Watson. They take jobs from Americans by working for dirt wages. They do not work any harder, just cheaper. Since their wages are so low they have to be supplemented by government programs in order to survive. .

for a second i thought you were talking about the 2.5 million workers that work at Walmart, Mcdonalds/Fast food, etc etc

you think this is regulated to just immigrants? How in denial are you

[Since they are illegal, they do not have direct access to social programs; however, they get around this by exploiting the 14th amendment and have lots of children that are considered full citizens and they use each of their children to draw welfare. This is why the birthrate for illegals is so much higher than native Americans.

Citation?

This is what i found
The birth rate of immigrant women 62 births per 1,000. By contrast, native-born women’s birth 54 per 1,000

Immigrant women still have a higher fertility rate, but their average of 2.22 . By contrast, the native-born fertility rate was just 1.79 children per woman in 2013, for an average of 1.87 overall.


this number has been dropping steadily since it peaked in 2007, its now at its lowest rate since 2004...or around 285k births.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ants-declines/


its higher but it sure does not seem like its the problem you are talking about.

[So their anchor baby children grow up getting free school lunch and college tuition grants from the government all funded by the American tax payer. After these anchor babies grow up and get their college degrees, they create more competition for Americans workers in the high skill job market..

The National School Lunch Program cost $11.6 billion. Anchor babies represent 8.5% of births per year so total cost is 986 million

College aid total = We delivered nearly $134 billion in aid to almost 13 million students attending more than 6,100 schools this past year.
So that would be 10k each. 285k births . Average rate in us 66% go to college. Low income families 45%. so lets go with 55%.
so 285k *55% = 156k = 1.5 billion spent per year

so between these two programs you are looking at 2.5 billion dollars in cost.

WOOOOO there goes our deficit baby!!!!!!

oh btw

America's undocumented immigrants pay an estimated $11.64 billion in state and local taxes every year with at least 50 percent of undocumented immigrant households filing tax returns using Individual Tax Identification Numbers.
Many who do not file tax returns still have taxes deducted from their pay checks. Out of that $11.64 billion total, undocumented immigrants pay $6.9 billion in sales and excise taxes, $3.6 billion in property taxes and about $1.1 billion in personal income taxes.

[Wells]

I will say though, blaming U6 data on illegal immigration is certainly a new one.

[May90]

If people cannot get jobs due to unfair competition, then they get discouraged and simply drop out of the workforce. This leaves a smaller portion of workers in the workforce, and it makes unemployment rates artificially low. Pretty basic and straight forward reasoning actually. Not difficult to grasp.

While this effect, indeed, takes place, it has nothing to do with illegal immigrants - nor is it the only, or even the primary, factor contributing to the decrease of the job market participation.

I'm not sure why so many people always look for scapegoats to blame for their problems: illegal immigrants, Muslims, aboriginal people, "China" - always someone on the side, so one can conveniently say, "Well, it is all because of them, I am clean and pure", and avoid taking the responsibility for the issue.

More competition, immigrants do not have much bargaining power so they settle for wages offered by the employer, ofc this does not mean they are modern slaves as many seem to believe. A farm worker has a median wage of 11$/h and the company offers them a bunch of benefits.

But since there is already a system of minimum wage in place, the employer can't really have any modern slaves legally - when even the minimum wage in every single state is enough for a living. And the employers aren't going to set the wage so low most of the time anyway, because they aren't just interested in hiring whoever is willing to apply, they also want high quality workers that are going to do a good job for the money they are paid.

The problem exists, but I think it is severely overblown, and it is a very minor issue, compared to a multitude of other, crippling issues, actually affecting dozens millions - such as, for example, overgrown healthcare costs that affect everyone, illegal immigrant or not.

[Pterodactylus]

Welfare, healthcare, free school lunch for their kids, government grants for their kids to attend college, etc. Anchor babies take away a lot of opportunities for American citizens.

Hmm, I thought those "anchor babies" were American citizens?

[nanook12]

for a second i thought you were talking about the 2.5 million workers that work at Walmart, Mcdonalds/Fast food, etc etc

you think this is regulated to just immigrants? How in denial are you




Citation?

This is what i found
The birth rate of immigrant women 62 births per 1,000. By contrast, native-born women’s birth 54 per 1,000

Immigrant women still have a higher fertility rate, but their average of 2.22 . By contrast, the native-born fertility rate was just 1.79 children per woman in 2013, for an average of 1.87 overall.


this number has been dropping steadily since it peaked in 2007, its now at its lowest rate since 2004...or around 285k births.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ants-declines/


its higher but it sure does not seem like its the problem you are talking about.




The National School Lunch Program cost $11.6 billion. Anchor babies represent 8.5% of births per year so total cost is 986 million

College aid total = We delivered nearly $134 billion in aid to almost 13 million students attending more than 6,100 schools this past year.
So that would be 10k each. 285k births . Average rate in us 66% go to college. Low income families 45%. so lets go with 55%.
so 285k *55% = 156k = 1.5 billion spent per year

so between these two programs you are looking at 2.5 billion dollars in cost.

WOOOOO there goes our deficit baby!!!!!!

oh btw

America's undocumented immigrants pay an estimated $11.64 billion in state and local taxes every year with at least 50 percent of undocumented immigrant households filing tax returns using Individual Tax Identification Numbers.
Many who do not file tax returns still have taxes deducted from their pay checks. Out of that $11.64 billion total, undocumented immigrants pay $6.9 billion in sales and excise taxes, $3.6 billion in property taxes and about $1.1 billion in personal income taxes.

You are telling me that the birthrate for 11 million illegal immigrants was nearly 10% of all babies born in the whole of the United States? Lol you shot yourself in the foot pal.

[shmiskywalke]

They don't understand and never will the reason they are allowed the freedoms they have are because of current, past and future veterans and no amount of talking will help them understand.

[Zan15]

That is miss leading. Work force participation rates have been very low the past few years. Basically, it means that there are not many people in the job market, so the unemployment rate is artificially low. If there were as many people participating in the work force as there was in 2008, then the unemployment rate would be closer to 9-11%.

so you mean unemployment in 1940-1970 was always at 11-15%? because based on your logic when LFP rates were at 56-60%

i don't think you understand LFP and baby boomers impact on the rate.


something that was predicted 20 years ago
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2000/07/art2full.pdf
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/ar...e-the-peak.htm


Here is their projection
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/ar...es-to-fall.htm

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/ar...-to-2024-1.htm



want to see what they predicted in 2007 for 2016
https://stats.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2007/11/art3full.pdf

they said around 65% so they were not too far off

here is what they said about the next year By 2018, almost all the baby
boomers will be in the 55-years-and-older age group. Age is a major factor in labor
market behavior, and the aging of the labor force will dramatically lower the overall labor
force participation rate and the growth of the labor force

The BLS projects that, between 2008 and 2018, 37.6 million workers will enter the labor force and 25 million will
leave. (See chart 7.) These figures compare with 36 million entrants and 19.4 million leavers over the 1998–2008 period.
The number of entrants into the labor force is anticipated to be around 1.6 million more than in the previous
decade. However, 5.6 million more people are expected to leave the labor force, mainly as a result of aging and
retirement.

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You are telling me that the birthrate for 11 million illegal immigrants was nearly 10% of all babies born in the whole of the United States? Lol you shot yourself in the foot pal.

sub 8% in 2016 is the projection waiting for new data, that data was from 2013-2014 year. Their birth rate is not BIGLY out of proportion vs the general population.




and really out of all that, that is the only thing you have as a counter? Nothing to say about the actual cost and lack of savings if you got rid of the 14th?

even if it was 10% you are talking about a net gain of taxes or worst case break even with what their parents contribute to the economy/govt relative to what they receive.

[netherflame]

What do you mean "laws around this"? That's how it's always fucking been. I hope your ancestors came here on the first pilgrimage or you wouldn't be considered an american citizen by your shit logic.

https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...rn-abroad.html

US laws and policies about children born abroad, also known as not on US soil.

TLDR; child is granted citizenship if atleast one of the parents is a US citizen and can prove they are the parent and can prove recent residence in the US or controlled territories.

You should learn about topics if you're going to come talk about them and then talk shit about others and their "shit logic."

[Kithelle]

Except the debt a country has isn't the same as debt on a business. You say this like we're some shit hole third world country. We don't have some epidemic of people starving to death so I think we're able to support our own people. We're perfectly capable of taking care of our vets (we already do) and allowing illegals a path to citizenship so they can start paying taxes would be more cost effective than rounding them up and deporting them. Obviously I'm not against deporting any violent criminals but if their only crime is being here, I don't see the point in deporting them.

Except we do have people starving...we have homeless if you haven't noticed....if we're so capable of taking care of our vets then why do so many suffer? Why is the VA so fucked up and inefficient? So it's okay just to give the people who got into the country legally a big F-U? I used to work with a Mexican man who got into the country legally...it was a lot of hard work and he was so nervous and proud...but no...lets just let intruders get all of our benefits while often evading taxing...accepting low paying jobs while getting payed under the table...