Ghostcrawler on unsubbing

[FelPlague]

I'm sorry, he is making an argument (players unsub for personal reasons, instead of dev decisions)
and tries to back it up with his own personal experience, instead of solid data (which he claims to have seenm therefore we shouldn't discuss them). Lol.

Also, Devs should be concerned about the amount of players leaving because of THEIR decisions, not for players leaving because they CANNOT play anymore. The players leaving because of the devs course of a game are the one sthat should be kept. The others are lost anyway despite the efforts a dev can put, so, they are irrelevant for the devs (except to just excuse themselves for their failures. "But... most ppl leave because family, studies etc, not because i suck")

you do know hes a game dev, and giving our a companies personal data (he cant anymore as he no longer has accesess to it since hes no longer working for blizzard) could get him massivly sued

[xanzul]

The Det thing: Maybe, even if a thread is lacking content, you should shut up and dont waste your time, when you have nothing to say. When ppl posting complaints about complaints or posting content-less stuff even on content-less threads, i think you have strong psychologic problems or waaaay too much time. either way you are an idiot and totally superfluos. in any sense. ppl that even defend such idiots must be even that much more stupid than them and are probably the most stupid superfluos idiots ever existing on this planet. aka you.

The GC thing: your stance to automatically assume GCs statement had offend me or some others here in any way, shows how stupid and/or whiteknightish you are. its pathetic. all i said is that GC dont talked much about long term game direction changes, which could cause sub losses (ofc) too. but idiots like you just hear "GC is under attack! WoW is under attack!" and go rant.

or in short: i think you are an idiot and you are a waste of time.

Fuck GC and Blizzard. My point is he had access to data we do not. This is a fact no matter how much you dislike it and pointing this out does not make me white knight.

Do you have proof he is lying about seeing the data or what that data was? No? Then sit down and shut the fuck up.

[Relapses]

The "Call of Duty" business model, is what I'd call it. Release the same game every year. It's pretty similar in a lot of respects. Hype a bunch, get the box sales, then let things slide for a year or so. Granted, WoW isn't nearly as bad in that regard. WoD was, but Legion appears to be keeping up the pace of content releases pretty well. We'll see what happens over the next 6 months.

People quitting under such a business model will have less impact, for sure. For Blizzard it's a better move, as I think is reflected in the earnings call we just saw listed earlier this week. But for players I'm not so sure. I think a lot really depends on if Blizzard can continue the releases in Legion like they've done so far. And we'll also see what kind of impact flying will really have at the same time(which I'm obviously VERY interested to see the results of, personally).

Personally, I wouldn't say it's a necessarily bad model. But it's very much a reflection of changes which have occurred in the overall gaming marketplace over the last few years. Blizzard would have gone under during WotLK if they had adopted this model then since WoW constituted such a huge portion of their revenue stream. (MMOs in general were much more popular back then, as well.) Now they have residuals from OW, HotS, Hearthstone and D3 to insulate them so taking a more cyclical-subscriber oriented approach to WoW is a way more feasible approach.

Granted, this isn't a total defense of their change in business philosophy. It makes sense for the reasons I've mentioned but the long term effects are yet to be seen. I can also definitely understand why this change has alienated some of the game's long term veteran subscribers.

[xanzul]

In addition there are two problems with explaining changing sub-numbers by people unsubbing for personal reasons:

Why are sub-numbers normally dropping when the game has a quiet period? To claim that people don't have time to play in a content drought doesn't make sense.
If the real problem isn't people leaving (that always happen), but no new players being attracted: then the question would be how do developer decisions influence people to subscribe?

Consider if it had been a pub/nightclub - that had it peaks and valleys in customers over the years and their best explanations were: people grow older and don't have time to go out, people don't find there friends here; and the DJ G-Street trying to explain that it isn't caused by the music, food, drinks etc.

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No, there is another response which is that his analysis is lacking since he didn't do a proper root-cause analysis ('5 whys').

If people leave because their friends aren't playing, then you shouldn't stop there - but figure out why people perceive that their friends aren't playing (perhaps because everyone is playing less - and then figure out why people play less; or perhaps because people stopped being friends in game - and then figure out what causes animosity amongst players).

Blizzard has been around 25+ years. I assure you they have hired people who can properly analyze the data. They aren't some indie game developer working out of someones garage.

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If that's genuinely thinking that then you re deluded, especially with the lack of serious competition on the western MMORPG market currently (most MMORPG out there are obsolete on a game design standpoint and heavily based on wow's design, that didn't evolve much since WOTLK or are ridden with blatant cash grabs).

Also, wow might be old but on a technical standpoint it still has the best game engine for MMORPG on a gameplay standpoint.

the main reason people have been leaving is that blizzard did put the game into semi cash cow mode since the end of wotlk, only investing sporadically in the game (as an example it should be obvious to the attentive player that much more money went into the development of throne of thunder or siege of Orgrimmar than the hellfire citadel).

There is no such thing as a "semi cash cow mode" that involves doing things to make a product less profitable. Most people who would have played wow have played and since moved on meaning the market is saturated at this point and wow no longer has new players coming in faster than the players leaving the game. People have been quitting wow since DAY ONE of vanilla.

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Again, to be fair, it's entirely possible that there are players who DO quit because they don't like a particular change in the game, but return when that change is reverted or when enough time has passed that the entire game is different(such as with a new expansion).

I know some regulars are probably going to facepalm when I say this, but....flying is a good example. Forum poster or not, a lot of people are waiting until flight is available before they resub/buy Legion. What do you suppose those people would do if flying never came back? Obviously Legion is doing well despite the fundamental change of how flying is handled(earnings call posted recently), but the players who left because of flying probably wouldn't come back.

The same thing would probably happen if LFR was removed. Or PVP servers. Or something else that defines the game in such fundamental ways. Just because the game is doing well doesn't mean people aren't leaving, or that they're lying when they give their reasons for doing so.

On the other hand, if they go as far as to claim that wow is going to die because people are quitting....well...that's obviously not true. But no one on the internet has EVER exaggerated a situation to make their point seem stronger, right? Right.....

This is complete and utter bullshit and you damn well know it. Many, many, many people here and on the official forums who have claimed they won't buy Wod or Legion or continue paying a subscription until they get flying actually did buy not only Wod but legion and have been subscribed for this entire duration with armory profiles showing very active and consistent play time.

[Thoughtful Trolli]

This is pretty much just confirmation that they do what they're going to do and don't worry about what people say about what they do. They're seeking to avoid stagnation, mostly.

They just need to not do those things that are absolute grief to the player base, and fix the ways players grief the player base.

I've just gotten to the point where I don't take loot from bosses. I click on the corpse and/or open the chest, but even if something is there, I don't take it. That way, they can't demand I hand over something that is technically an upgrade just because it's not ilevel equivalent. Then I discreetly take it from the mailbox way later outside raid.

In the very least, I guess they can release and manage a modern-times billboard with suggestions players can use to protect themselves from grief attacks.

[xanzul]

I am sorry you appear to have replied to someone else's post and quoted me. Nowhere in my post did I mention Blizzard or Ghostcrawler and the whole conversation was about a hypothetical situation.

Ghostcrawler has not been scathingly critical of Blizzard. Stop lying.

You are responding to a thread about GC and the reasons why people have quit Wow which is a Blizzard game. How the fuck is it not about GC and Blizzard? Stop trolling.

[Pann]

You are responding to a thread about GC and the reasons why people have quit Wow which is a Blizzard game. How the fuck is it not about GC and Blizzard? Stop trolling.

Right? And? As far as I am aware there is no rule that states that every single post must explicitly be about the thread's title. My post was not about Ghostcrawler or Blizzard as it did not mention either of them. I suggest that if you have a problem with the scenario that I was discussing you direct your, over-abundant, anger at the person who first mentioned it.

Seriously though, it been almost six years you've wasted on being angry at strangers on the internet for not loving a multi-billion dollar company as much you. A company, I might add, that does not allow you to use its own forums to talk to its customers because of the anger you direct towards them. Isn't it time you let it go?

[SirCowdog]

This is complete and utter bullshit and you damn well know it. Many, many, many people here and on the official forums who have claimed they won't buy Wod or Legion or continue paying a subscription until they get flying actually did buy not only Wod but legion and have been subscribed for this entire duration with armory profiles showing very active and consistent play time.

And you have proof of this? I'm not saying it didn't happen for a few people, but as people are fond of pointing out: Forum posters are a vocal minority. That works both ways, you know. If one person said they'd quit because of flying but didn't, that's not evidence that EVERYONE who said they'd quit over flying is full of shit.

Like I said: "Just because the game is doing well doesn't mean people aren't leaving, or that they're lying when they give their reasons for doing so." The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.

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Personally, I wouldn't say it's a necessarily bad model. But it's very much a reflection of changes which have occurred in the overall gaming marketplace over the last few years. Blizzard would have gone under during WotLK if they had adopted this model then since WoW constituted such a huge portion of their revenue stream. (MMOs in general were much more popular back then, as well.) Now they have residuals from OW, HotS, Hearthstone and D3 to insulate them so taking a more cyclical-subscriber oriented approach to WoW is a way more feasible approach.

Granted, this isn't a total defense of their change in business philosophy. It makes sense for the reasons I've mentioned but the long term effects are yet to be seen. I can also definitely understand why this change has alienated some of the game's long term veteran subscribers.

I think the threat of the private servers(can I reference those without being infracted as long as I don't name names?) catering to some of those older customers might have influenced their decision process as well.

But if anything, I'd think that the financial stability that their other titles gives them would encourage Blizzard to not have to be so stingy in some regards of how WoW is designed. I know it's a subscription model and all, but if they're going to move more towards catering to cyclical players I'd think it would be reflected more in the game itself. The AP grind, for instance, and the legendary RNG nonsense.

Anyway, we're getting pretty far off topic. I absolutely do think that cancelling a sub is still the strongest form of communication with the devs, for the average player. Speaking with your wallet is the ultimate signal of whether you approve of a product or not. Posting on the forums has been shown to be mostly ineffective unless massive amounts of people are also posting on the same subject(No-flying, RealID, etc). As I've said before, once a company has your money, they care a hell of a lot less what you think.

[Forogil]

Blizzard has been around 25+ years. I assure you they have hired people who can properly analyze the data. They aren't some indie game developer working out of someones garage.

The quote from OP indicated the opposite, since "friends don't play" is not a good enough explanation by any reasonable standard.

It might be that they haven't focused on that, it might be that they didn't tell Ghostcrawler, or that it was confidential and he cannot explain it in more detail.

[DarkTZeratul]

So during WoD 7 million players just didn't have time to play anymore for family reasons. What a coincidence!

Virtually everyone who brings this up tends to ignore the extremely relevant and mitigating fact that most of those players came back shortly before WoD launched. It wasn't a huge drop-off so much as a huge spike.

[Gadzooks]

Ghost Crawler makes some salient points. The truth is that the only effective way for most players to influence game developers is by posting constructive and detailed critique on a relevant forum.

And add to that: accept beforehand that your comments might not be in line with what the devs want, and more than likely will get no public response.

A big part of the problem is that everyone thinks they deserve a blue response to everything, and that clearly is not going to happen. Some things, they may not want to talk about, because they want the players to do it.

There are problems on both sides here - the devs could share a little more, and the players could demand a little less. Somewhere in the middle is a compromise.

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Virtually everyone who brings this up tends to ignore the extremely relevant and mitigating fact that most of those players came back shortly before WoD launched. It wasn't a huge drop-off so much as a huge spike.

Definitely a huge spike. I made a comment at the time that Blizzard had gotten a HUGE windfall with the WoD release, and it was up to them to keep it. I was done with it in less than a week. Others lasted longer. And they blew it, big time.

They seem to have Legion lined up to retain players better, so we'll see. 7.2 is a big patch, and it's not the only one coming.

[Pantalaimon]

His analysis is seems oddly incomplete, he is missing 'the 5 whys'. If someone says 'my friends don't play anymore', there is likely a reason why those friends don't play anymore (or not seen as playing). Similarly when someone says 'I have less time' - the question is why people stop playing instead of playing less.

I'm not sure how effective it would be for him to try and talk about those 5 whys.

MMOC may be a small portion of the overall player base, but in the year or so I have been a regular poster on these forums I have found that in general the average MMOC poster is in strong denial that WoW players stop playing because of having less time or more responsibilities. Usually, they will respond in such a manner as; "The subs aren't declining because of an aging playerbase. I have 3 kids and a full time job and I am a regular raider who plays four hours a week. Since I do this with a full load of responsibilities then your claim of players unsubbing due to having less time is BS." In most cases the posters on here sum up the argument with that 'strong' rebuttal.

In the end I can't help, but feel that if Ghostcrawler went into a little more detail for different reasons that players have stopped or decreased playing that it would fall on deaf, or moderately hostile ears instead because they don't believe in more reasons for player decline outside of what their individual player bias dictates in their minds.

[Deleted]

Oh fucking hell. Come on people, think critically here. He saw the data but that doesn't mean the data is accurate. First, some people will just pick the first reason because they don't really care about making sure the data is accurate they just want to end their sub and they have to choose something or they can't complete the form. Second, they can only capture the reasons for which they have questions. If, for example, people are quitting Legion because they hate their class design and the exit form doesn't have a response that covers that, they'll pick something else if forced to provide an answer.

Those forms, unless really well done and updated from other sources (the people who chose "Other" and give their reasons, mostly), are classic Garbage in, Garbage out. If there are 5 top reasons people REALLY leave but the form only lists 2, then their data won't be accurate so the arguments based on it won't be valid.

Ahh, so he's seen the data - but you happen to know it was wildly inaccurate?
You mean any form that doesn't have "Devs ruined my class!11" checkbox is simply just not valid - because it's the only TRUE REASON people quit?

You should call the White House - I'm sure their alternative facts department would be delighted to have you!

[MasterOfNone]

so some of your friends have gone from "i love this game and could never see myself quitting" to "i quit" because of 1 change?

several yes. flying in wod as an example. came back beginning of legion to see the same shit and they left again. now i no it doesnt amount to hundreds or thousands, but they still quit

[Aurabolt]

This is pretty much just confirmation that they do what they're going to do and don't worry about what people say about what they do. They're seeking to avoid stagnation, mostly.

They just need to not do those things that are absolute grief to the player base, and fix the ways players grief the player base.

I've just gotten to the point where I don't take loot from bosses. I click on the corpse and/or open the chest, but even if something is there, I don't take it. That way, they can't demand I hand over something that is technically an upgrade just because it's not ilevel equivalent. Then I discreetly take it from the mailbox way later outside raid.

In the very least, I guess they can release and manage a modern-times billboard with suggestions players can use to protect themselves from grief attacks.

This is the gist of what GC said in short, well said. In addition like it or not, GC has--or rather had--access to data the player base never has and never will. When Blizzard bothered to share some of that data publicly, the vocal minority--and that's what those of us who use internet forums are compared to the silent majority who do not--felt since they were using their voice outside WoW, only their voice mattered. That and most of 'em still feel they can speak for "all" or "most" WoW Players.

The total number of current AND former WoW Players who use internet forums worldwide is definitely less than 7 Million. Actually I'm sure it's half that. Those who never used internet forums? Easily 16 million if not more. The one truth that CANNOT be denied is the majority of WoW Players past and present do not use internet forums be it MMO-C, The official forums and otherwise (Some do use Social media though). The problem is the vocal minority I mentioned before feels the silent majority's opinion doesn't matter.

...Fortunately, Blizzard disagrees with that. LOL.

I also think this thread should last for a long time as a mega thread. This is such an important topic that should be confronted head on and accepted by all sides.

[clevin]

Ahh, so he's seen the data - but you happen to know it was wildly inaccurate?
You mean any form that doesn't have "Devs ruined my class!11" checkbox is simply just not valid - because it's the only TRUE REASON people quit?

You should call the White House - I'm sure their alternative facts department would be delighted to have you!

Sigh. YOu're either stupid or trolling. I'm NOT saying it IS inaccurate I'm saying that unless they do what I was outlining they can't know that it IS accurate. Here, I'll try again:

Let's say there are 10 reasons for half the cancellations. Each reason makes up an equal share of the cancellations, i.e. each reason accounts for 5% of the cancellation. Now, let's say that they have choices on the exit form for 5 of these but not the other 5. In this case CANNOT know the reasons behind 25% of the cancellations.

Now, is this reality. Nah. But the point should be obvious if you stop and think - they can only measure what they ask. In addition, how they list questions will influence people - put something generic first and it's likely to get picked because people just want to cancel. Some surveys randomly sort questions to avoid this.

Your idiotic comment about the White House is better directed at yourself since you obviously believe what you're told and cannot think critically about it.

[FelPlague]

several yes. flying in wod as an example. came back beginning of legion to see the same shit and they left again. now i no it doesnt amount to hundreds or thousands, but they still quit

that is not 1 thing making you quit though again, did you really quit JUST BECAUSE OF FLYING or did you quit because X Y Z A B C D E F G but flying was what finally made you give in?

[MasterOfNone]

Virtually everyone who brings this up tends to ignore the extremely relevant and mitigating fact that most of those players came back shortly before WoD launched. It wasn't a huge drop-off so much as a huge spike.

and then left AGAIN. another point that tends to be ignored as extremely relevant.

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that is not 1 thing making you quit though again, did you really quit JUST BECAUSE OF FLYING or did you quit because X Y Z A B C D E F G but flying was what finally made you give in?

no it was flying. they still WANT to play but vote with their wallets. blizzard made a game decision that they dont agree with. simple as that. not saying i 100% share their ideals, but who am i to say that what they want to pay for is wrong because of their reasoning?

[Pantalaimon]

And they quit for family reasons again​?

Players allegedly quiting for lack of time or family reasons does happen because of the convenience that choosing that option on the exit form is a slightly faster route. However, it is very feasible to quit due to a lack of time or family reasons once, come back later and then quit again due to to a lack of time or family reason. People change their minds to try and get something to work out and/or have schedules that aren't static more often than you seem to be giving credit to.

For example, I unsubbed in late December or mid January due to having not felt that I got my month's money worth. I had resubbed to get the unique stuff from the Diablo event, but due to long commuting times with work and school, and related homework on top of that, I didn't really get to log on again for any meaningful time during that month. So for my reason I put that I didn't have time & that I felt that I didn't get my money's worth for that sub cost currently. However, when Love is in the Air came back around shortly after I decided to change my mind & try and bite the bullet shortly after and attempt to make it work with my schedule in order to benefit from the 'easy' mass farming of the Love Rocket mount. In this anecdotal case I changed my mind to attempt to play again despite having things competing for my time still. If I can make it work I may stay subbed, but if I don't benefit from my sub with the time that I have after participating in the holiday then I may unsub again temporarily (ie I would be quiting for the same reason again).

Quiting for the same reason is very possible. Just because you can't fathom it or look at different situations from you own very well doesn't mean it doesn't happen much more often than you think probable.

[Niwes]

Fuck GC and Blizzard. My point is he had access to data we do not. This is a fact no matter how much you dislike it and pointing this out does not make me white knight.

Do you have proof he is lying about seeing the data or what that data was? No? Then sit down and shut the fuck up.

you are right, he has data we do not have. i agree to that (and never disagreed?). i jusr said he has not talked about ALL reasons why ppl unsubscribe. overall i definetelly agree to what you say here.