BM: Legendary Shoulders are giving me a headache, please help.

[Scrya]

First of all, don't get me wrong. The shoulders are amazing and I am not complaining, they are infact better than i thought.
But here is the thing, my guild is currently progressing on Mythic Krosus and I am trying to get the most out of my stuff.

So I was lucky enough last week to loot the legendary belt and shoulders within a day (yes, hate me for that). After that i spent quite some time with logs from other hunters and sims. Simulationcraft suggested me (assuming patchwerkstyle ST fight) to go with
way of the cobra -> stomp -> one with the pack
Also my secondary weights changed to this:
crit 21.23
agi 20.80
mastery 18.09
haste 17.00
vers 14.48

I tried many many combos on simcraft and they all yield much lower results (especially with dire frenzy)

So I changed all enchants/gems to crit, and shifted some items from mast+haste to mast+crit now my statweights are all about equal and that's the highest sim i could reach with my gear. Alright, so I used this spec in heroic raid and wow, the dps increase was immense. I thought this is it, sims are correct and i got my alltime favorite spec, since its equally good on ST as on AoE. and wow, permanent BW, so nice.... - fullstop -
wait a minute? there is a chinese bm hunter with similar stats to mine that did 800k dps on Krosus mythic, but using dire frenzy on warcraftlogs?
Since we are really on the edge with dps for mythic krosus my gm gave me the permission to ignore most of the adds and focus a bit more on boss. and hell yeah, once i figured out i can permanently keep up 3 stacks of DF the dps went up quite a bit. It is a bit tricky because DF is only useable when the pet is in meleerange of the target, but it was quite obvious to see that I deal more dmg to the boss with the DF talent.

After the raid i spent ages at the targetdummy to verify my findings, and yes... unless I am reaaallyyy unlucky with the procs i can keep up the 3 stacks infinitly and my dps is at least 50k higher than with stomp.

Alright, sorry for the long text of wall, and thanks for reading so far. So here is my question:
How am I supposed to figure out what secondary stats i should prioritize now? I changed everything to crit and it works very well with stomp and one with the pack, but if i go with dire frenzy it's enough to get a proc like every 30 seconds to keep up the 3 stacks. If i can't sim it correctly how can i know which of my trinkets is the best choice or what secondaries would yield the best results without spending another 3 hours at the dummy? :-/


I am sorry for annoying many of you with those "problems" (hell, they should have made it baseline and never introduced legendaries...) , but I will be thankful for any useful feedback.


my prorfile:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...y%C3%A2/simple

[Khrux]

If you have the mantle, then you just swap to Agi > Mastery > Crit > Haste and use OwtP.

Theoretically Dire Frenzy is stronger on ST than Stomp, but its more difficult to use it correctly as it gives you focus instantly instead of over time like Dire beast, plus it offers no Aoe/Cleave which is important for the majority of fights in NH.

Lastly the discussion has been ongoing for weeks now in the 7.1.5 theorycraft thread and Azor's hunter guide thread.

[Deleted]

Dire frenzy definitely gives AoE. It increases atk speed by 42%*3. And that benefits beast cleave. Not sure if it's better or worse than stomps benefit, but to say that it doesn't benefit AoE at all is false.

[Deleted]

Dire frenzy definitely gives AoE. It increases atk speed by 42%*3. And that benefits beast cleave. Not sure if it's better or worse than stomps benefit, but to say that it doesn't benefit AoE at all is false.

Myes, I tried looking around for Dire Frenzy effect on AoE but I failed to find something comparing both and the difference.

I still have AMR showing DF as a damage loss on ST compared with Stomp which is just WEIRD. DF is supposed to be the ST talent.

[Khrux]

On long periods of AoE, where you can stack up frenzy multiple times and beast cleave for long periods then yes Frenzy has some use on AoE but what fights exist that are like that?

Spellblade Ice adds? Maybe, if your raid comp lacks AoE but these generally die too quick for BM to even be one of the top dps on those adds.
Skorpyron? On norm/heroic I guess so, everyone abandons the mechanics and just mass AoEs the whole fight plus the fights a joke so who cares.
Botanist? On norm/heroic it definitely has merit.
Tichondrius? Bloods and Bats are all about burst aoe.

Every other boss the AoE is either too bursty to build up frenzy/beast cleave or adds are too spread for BM to be any use anyway.

[Senel]

Having just killed Krosus last night as BM, I went with the usual ST talents plus stomp and owtp. Can easily top dps in pulls with good procs. Went with Mast>crit>haste stats. Few tips: only switch to adds somewhat close to Krosus, try and use Stomp on stacked adds (if any), and try to time KC in the last millisecond of his smash so your pet doesn't get stunned (hard to pull off 100%).

Here's my armory for reference.

[Deleted]

I was wondering why some of the top BM hunters (for instance Drîl-Twisting Nether) on the logs had crit enchants on their rings? Is it because of when you have the shoulders crit > mastery or is it that they want to have crit on a certain %.

Shizs-Frostmane

[Khrux]

If you have the legendary shoulders you take the "One with the pack" talent which increases your chance to get dire beast resets from auto attack crits. Therefore you prioritize crit over haste.

[Scrya]

I was wondering why some of the top BM hunters (for instance Drîl-Twisting Nether) on the logs had crit enchants on their rings? Is it because of when you have the shoulders crit > mastery or is it that they want to have crit on a certain %.

Shizs-Frostmane

if your simulation spits out those stat weights:
crit 21.23
agi 20.80
mastery 18.09
haste 17.00
it's quite obvious why you go for crit. it greatly starts to drop in importance when u reach 33%+

anyways, i will go with stomp since its a) easier/more forgiving to play and b) we lack ranged to deal with the adds... wish me luck ;-)

[Deleted]

How do you get your statweights? When I use simcraft I get
Mastery 15.09
Agi 14.14
Haste 11.64
Vers 11.31
Crit 11.16

I got the shoulders and the boots legendaries. So I pretty confused at the moment.. Should I use crit enchants and gems or not?

[Deleted]

Switch enchants around in simcraft and see what yields the best results. I'm using crit enchants on my rings because it performs best.

[Deleted]

Switch enchants around in simcraft and see what yields the best results. I'm using crit enchants on my rings because it performs best.

Is there a way to sim this without buying enchants from the auction house and switching between those on my rings? :P

[Deleted]

With shoulders I'm pretty sure you can go wotc, stomp, owtp, bf,, crows, KC, for everything with 30% crit.

[Deleted]

Is there a way to sim this without buying enchants from the auction house and switching between those on my rings? :P

In your simcraft profile you can change things around, it's like a text document. It's as easy as changing "critical_strike" to "mastery" wherever the enchants are located (I'm at work now so I can't give you a screenshot 'guide').

What's more annoying in Simcraft is switching gear out with all the bonus id. I think exporting your gear from AMR to Simcraft might be a faster way to check different gear/stat combinations without getting a headache, but I haven't tried that myself.

[Spiralphoenix]

In your simcraft profile you can change things around, it's like a text document. It's as easy as changing "critical_strike" to "mastery" wherever the enchants are located (I'm at work now so I can't give you a screenshot 'guide').

What's more annoying in Simcraft is switching gear out with all the bonus id. I think exporting your gear from AMR to Simcraft might be a faster way to check different gear/stat combinations without getting a headache, but I haven't tried that myself.

Enchants can use an id or a straight string like you suggest, depending on how you build your sim profile.

finger1=braided_silver_ring,id=134539,enchant_id=5429,bonus_id=3536/1552/3337 (my ring when using /simc in game to generate profile)

finger1=braided_silver_ring,id=134539,bonus_id=3536/1552/3337,enchant=200mastery (my ring using simulationcrafts "import" feature)

[zaphre]

Im simming 698k with the change from mastery to crit after getting my shoulders plus using OWTP talent.

My weights as of now are:

Crit: 20.46
Agi: 19.51
Mastery: 18.94
Versa: 14.26

Stats are:

Crit: 32%
Haste: 11%
Mastery: 69%
Versa: 4%

Gotta say.... this build is freaking amazing. My dire beasts are hitting almost 3x more than hati and the tamed beast on every encounter, also, most often, BW comes off CD while the buff still active... this happens A LOT, i only hold BW a few seconds to fill up on focus.

Dire Stable still the best option for this build tho, i sim 30k less DPS with way of the cobra, the sheer ammount of Dire Beasts still doesnt make this talent worth it.

[Felstone]

Similar situation here, legendary shoulders w 4p, guild on M Krosus, looking to squeeze out every drop of damage.

I've simmed both specs discussed above; One with the Pack w crit setup came out to 567k, standard Bestial Fury w mastery setup was 594k

Am i missing something?

[zaphre]

Similar situation here, legendary shoulders w 4p, guild on M Krosus, looking to squeeze out every drop of damage.

I've simmed both specs discussed above; One with the Pack w crit setup came out to 567k, standard Bestial Fury w mastery setup was 594k

Am i missing something?

What is your other legendary equiped, also, trinkets? Stomp plus Dire Stable will sim 30k+ then Dire Frenzy aswell

[Felstone]

What is your other legendary equiped, also, trinkets? Stomp plus Dire Stable will sim 30k+ then Dire Frenzy aswell

Apex + Frond & Instinct (here's my armory)
I'll give Stomp Dire Stable a shot, was using the standard SimCraft talent choices. If you wouldn't mind sharing your armory i'd love to try and emulate you

This is what SimCraft spit out @ 50,000 iterations. I thought my gearing may be a factor so i changed all my enchants in the SimCraft hash and shifted 2,000 mastery into crit since it's simming slightly higher than mastery for me right now.

Standard


One with the Pack

[zaphre]

Apex + Frond & Instinct (here's my armory)
I'll give Stomp Dire Stable a shot, was using the standard SimCraft talent choices. If you wouldn't mind sharing your armory i'd love to try and emulate you

This is what SimCraft spit out @ 50,000 iterations. I thought my gearing may be a factor so i changed all my enchants in the SimCraft hash and shifted 2,000 mastery into crit since it's simming slightly higher than mastery for me right now.

Standard


One with the Pack

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...phrette/simple

there