[Ret] So, can we plz talk about the 7.2 Golden Trait?

[Reith]

OK I spend an hour farming AP and got the golden trait.
The only thing that spreads is the debuff and it spreads at the leftover duration. Our gold trait essentially is a minor buff to AoE (not cleave, on cleave our judgement is already spread)

With 4p though, our dungeon AoE should be insane with this. For raiding, it will be a minor buff in most cases (as much padding as anything else). The class does not lack in that anymore (it lacks in ST since it's ST was nerfed several times in a row)

Well it's not as good as I hoped it would be, but I guess it's better than nothing, and Greater Judgment doesn't lose its utility since it makes it faster to spread to more targets, but it's still not that great anyway because you'll need to cast Judgment on cooldown to get the most out of the T20 4P with Divine Hammer.

[Reith]

It's yet another bad trait on the Ashbringer. Meanwhile I am salivating at my new Frost DK traits

"I guess it's better than nothing" is what I also said about T19 4P, lol. That seems to be the mantra for ret lately. oh well at least Tomb will have 5 single target fights and Blade of Wrath benefits a lot from T20 and the 20% trait increase, so we'll see how much that gets us in single target. Divine Hammer will still be good for the other fights.

[Ooshraxa]

OK I spend an hour farming AP and got the golden trait.
The only thing that spreads is the debuff and it spreads at the leftover duration. Our gold trait essentially is a minor buff to AoE (not cleave, on cleave our judgement is already spread)

With 4p though, our dungeon AoE should be insane with this. For raiding, it will be a minor buff in most cases (as much padding as anything else). The class does not lack in that anymore (it lacks in ST since it's ST was nerfed several times in a row)

Thanks a bunch for testing this!

[Wutangrza]

I really don't think it's bad. Here's how you should read it (sort of).

Pretend it said, "Your DS damage is increased by your mastery". That's about what it does (almost). Which is actually really damn good. Sure, we're already strong cleave vs ST, but it does fix the problem of "oh, that piece has mastery on it, there's no way I want it."

For ST, mastery is like 10-20% behind the other stats. For AoE, it's like 136% behind, which means in practice, mastery is just an absolutely awful stat for us to the point that any piece of gear that has mastery on it should under no circumstances be considered (other than for pure ST). This fixes that. You're still not going to want to go out of your way to get mastery, but at least you won't have to pass on a 20 ilvl upgrade just because it happens to have some mastery on it.

[Reith]

I really don't think it's bad. Here's how you should read it (sort of).

Pretend it said, "Your DS damage is increased by your mastery". That's about what it does (almost). Which is actually really damn good. Sure, we're already strong cleave vs ST, but it does fix the problem of "oh, that piece has mastery on it, there's no way I want it."

For ST, mastery is like 10-20% behind the other stats. For AoE, it's like 136% behind, which means in practice, mastery is just an absolutely awful stat for us to the point that any piece of gear that has mastery on it should under no circumstances be considered (other than for pure ST). This fixes that. You're still not going to want to go out of your way to get mastery, but at least you won't have to pass on a 20 ilvl upgrade just because it happens to have some mastery on it.

Mastery is actually competitive for me for single target. Probably helps I've got the cloak, but yeah. It's just trash for AOE atm. This is why I think mastery could get really good for single target fights with T20 4P, and there's like 5 single target fights in Tomb apparently.

Maybe one of the last tier sets will have a 6P bonus and it'll be "Your Crusader Strike refreshes the duration of your Judgment." god I would love that. I would fucking LOVE it.

[Deleted]

I really don't think it's bad. Here's how you should read it (sort of).

Pretend it said, "Your DS damage is increased by your mastery". That's about what it does (almost). Which is actually really damn good. Sure, we're already strong cleave vs ST, but it does fix the problem of "oh, that piece has mastery on it, there's no way I want it."

For ST, mastery is like 10-20% behind the other stats. For AoE, it's like 136% behind, which means in practice, mastery is just an absolutely awful stat for us to the point that any piece of gear that has mastery on it should under no circumstances be considered (other than for pure ST). This fixes that. You're still not going to want to go out of your way to get mastery, but at least you won't have to pass on a 20 ilvl upgrade just because it happens to have some mastery on it.

This is completely wrong. The trait is terrible because it will only start doing anything if you have at least 3 targets.

Also mastery is not always aweful it is quite close for me on ST as well. It has nothing to do with mastery but that it needs 3 or more targets to work

[Wutangrza]

This is completely wrong. The trait is terrible because it will only start doing anything if you have at least 3 targets.

Also mastery is not always aweful it is quite close for me on ST as well. It has nothing to do with mastery but that it needs 3 or more targets to work

Not like there are all that many Patchwerk fights these days. And our minor trait right before the golden is pretty awesome.

[stolker]

I have no idea how the changes are going to play out numerically, some 7.2 additions sound insanely good (the fact that we get another 2.5sec crusade for free, the minor new trait that increases blade damage, and the trait after that which gives me (with my current gear), about 7% more strength, or 3.5 in case it doesn't stack.

But what I can say is that the traits are boring as fuck. Like, really really boring. They enhance nothing about how the class plays or feels, and it likely has a minimal effect on practical itemization (even if mastery pulls equal with other stats, you're still gonna want the other stats because they're still gonna be better for single target). I mean, we get a flat mainstat buff as one of the new traits? What the fuck? Judgement, an ability that is an utter shadow of its potential, sometimes spread to nearby targets so we do more cleave damage (if we get lucky with our auto attacks)?

Honestly I couldn't possibly have conceived of something more boring if I tried really really hard. From the shit class design in general (rogue-lite with simpleton rotation), shit itemization (4p trait in t19 that just plays like shit), shit talents (everyone uses crusade) and now this stuff, whoever is in charge of the class has completely and utterly failed at doing a quality job if you ask me. Sorry guy if you're reading this, but that's just how it is. You should be replaced.

[Deleted]

What many of you seem to forget, is that ToS will be mostly ST. If you go through new traits and T20 bonuses for other classes there is a red line. Except for Ret specc.
The red line being; Focus on ST damage.

I have no clue how people fail to comprehend/misinterpret the tooltip. Sure, it is not worded perfectly but kind of obvious how it works. Simply "spreading" has always been described for debuffs (Judgement) and from "damage" (not autoattacks or abilities, just damage). And there is nothing implying the debuff would refresh or something.
- Would you actually think the damage itself would "jump" ? That would be broken on a whole new level.

And to connect to my first point, ToS will be heavily in favor for strong ST speccs. Ret is being gutted in this aspect. Sure our new golden trait seems to be very good for dungeons, I am not confident it will be better than other speccs cleave in raids (like Ele, warriors, Fire mages, monks etc).


As with @Nymrohd, I also have a DK ready. When I first saw the new traits and T20 I knew that Blizzard still had know clue what they want to achieve with Ret. Our overpowered defensives this expansion is totally blocking our chance at top tier DPS potential.

The only chance left is the balance patch before ToS. Maybe they fuck up and overtune us once again. But I'm for sure abandoning Ret if this will stay.

[Deleted]

Our overpowered defensives this expansion is totally blocking our chance at top tier DPS potential.

The only chance left is the balance patch before ToS. Maybe they fuck up and overtune us once again. But I'm for sure abandoning Ret if this will stay.

what? ovrpwrd defs? rlly? aka godmode?

exclusive addition 2 WoD def kit is SoV, even with Aegisjalmar (2xSoV at death) SoV isnt OP. 2,5min Divine Shield was nerfed to the ground (4min, Auto-Bubble still on GCD! death while casting no auto-bubble), LoH is back on 10min cd. our defs got nerfed, and tnerfed again. but were they OP WoD?
Warlords Season Ladders proove contrary.

its not the "ovrpwrd" defs that "block our ST potential". its not even justified 4 pvp-balancing, cuz templates (and bzzd stated several times, they want WPvP without templates, to make the char feel his achieved "power")

/edit (cuz it bugs me): evry time i face Frost i wonder where those OP defs (, that block our ST Potential,) r... and pillar hopping is not a class ability (but maybe pl skill).

[Deleted]

what? ovrpwrd defs? rlly? aka godmode?

exclusive addition 2 WoD def kit is SoV, even with Aegisjalmar (2xSoV at death) SoV isnt OP. 2,5min Divine Shield was nerfed to the ground (4min, Auto-Bubble still on GCD! death while casting no auto-bubble), LoH is back on 10min cd. our defs got nerfed, and tnerfed again. but were they OP WoD?
Warlords Season Ladders proove contrary.

its not the "ovrpwrd" defs that "block our ST potential". its not even justified 4 pvp-balancing, cuz templates (and bzzd stated several times, they want WPvP without templates, to make the char feel his achieved "power")

/edit (cuz it bugs me): evry time i face Frost i wonder where those OP defs (, that block our ST Potential,) r... and pillar hopping is not a class ability (but maybe pl skill).

Thought it was pretty obvious we are talking about PvE, not PvP.
And yes, our defensives are way too strong. Play any other dps class and you will get a better perspective. It's not controversial, just straight facts.

Even though Blizzard won't admit it, my theory is still that we are being held back by it (and the Retribution passive).

[Reith]

What many of you seem to forget, is that ToS will be mostly ST. If you go through new traits and T20 bonuses for other classes there is a red line. Except for Ret specc.
The red line being; Focus on ST damage.

I have no clue how people fail to comprehend/misinterpret the tooltip. Sure, it is not worded perfectly but kind of obvious how it works. Simply "spreading" has always been described for debuffs (Judgement) and from "damage" (not autoattacks or abilities, just damage). And there is nothing implying the debuff would refresh or something.
- Would you actually think the damage itself would "jump" ? That would be broken on a whole new level.

And to connect to my first point, ToS will be heavily in favor for strong ST speccs. Ret is being gutted in this aspect. Sure our new golden trait seems to be very good for dungeons, I am not confident it will be better than other speccs cleave in raids (like Ele, warriors, Fire mages, monks etc).


As with @Nymrohd, I also have a DK ready. When I first saw the new traits and T20 I knew that Blizzard still had know clue what they want to achieve with Ret. Our overpowered defensives this expansion is totally blocking our chance at top tier DPS potential.

The only chance left is the balance patch before ToS. Maybe they fuck up and overtune us once again. But I'm for sure abandoning Ret if this will stay.

T20 2P benefits Blade of Wrath more than Divine Hammer, but 4P probably benefits Divine Hammer more. We'll still be using Blade of Wrath on the single target fights though.

[Deleted]

Thought it was pretty obvious we are talking about PvE, not PvP.
And yes, our defensives are way too strong. Play any other dps class and you will get a better perspective. It's not controversial, just straight facts.

Even though Blizzard won't admit it, my theory is still that we are being held back by it (and the Retribution passive).

wow. u just claim without any verification. cuz ITS JUST STRAIGHT FACTS.

and yes, our defensives rnt OP (as u claimed clickbaity). cuz i have 6 toons finalized (910+). since u choose the CUZ FACTS card, i wont even bother to explain the superiority of other classes defs (no tanks).

and oviously defs r no real measurement for PVE DPS, thats y the only rational argument to restrict DPS is Defs for PvP. cuz facts.


Fact: def kit was pruned (/as verified in my former post), close to nerfed to the ground, but als long as u have ur "theory" thats DPS ST nerf is due to OP DEFs, its a fact. hm?

[Deleted]

wow. u just claim without any verification. cuz ITS JUST STRAIGHT FACTS.

and yes, our defensives rnt OP (as u claimed clickbaity). cuz i have 6 toons finalized (910+). since u choose the CUZ FACTS card, i wont even bother to explain the superiority of other classes defs (no tanks).

and oviously defs r no real measurement for PVE DPS, thats y the only rational argument to restrict DPS is Defs for PvP. cuz facts.


Fact: def kit was pruned (/as verified in my former post), close to nerfed to the ground, but als long as u have ur "theory" thats DPS ST nerf is due to OP DEFs, its a fact. hm?

If you try to type more words in capital, that would definitely prove your "point".

[Malthanis]

Let's keep this civil, please.

[Wutangrza]

You know, after looking at our new traits versus others. Our non-golden is arguably the best non-golden new trait. 2k str flat is insane compared to what most other classes get. I'd imagine this is by design in order to make up for the fact that our golden is only useful vs 3+ targets.

The new golden + Blessing of the Ashbringer + the hotfix (righteous verdict is now a 32% increase to DH instead of 20%). Ret should be doing okay'ish ST, and crushing cleave.

[Reith]

You know, after looking at our new traits versus others. Our non-golden is arguably the best non-golden new trait. 2k str flat is insane compared to what most other classes get. I'd imagine this is by design in order to make up for the fact that our golden is only useful vs 3+ targets.

The new golden + Blessing of the Ashbringer + the hotfix (righteous verdict is now a 32% increase to DH instead of 20%). Ret should be doing okay'ish ST, and crushing cleave.

It seems like they recognize we were a little low overall. Even if they don't give anymore buffs I'm probably gonna be relatively happy with how the damage turns out. T20 2P should be a decent boost for single target fights using Blade of Wrath since it's a lot more reliable than T19 4P. It's nice to know if you hit Blade of Justice, you get 3HP.