Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Deleted]

People complain about everything all the time. Doesn't mean, it's not wrong. For the overwhelming, vast majority of players, it's completely irrelevant, which artifact level or which legendaries you have. You can't kill Krosus nhc? No, it's not because you don't have your (presumed) BIS leg or artifact level 54. This game is not designed for people who want to consume all the content on day one. That would be insane. Wowprogress lists ~20.000 heroic guilds. The point still stands: "casuals" in general, don't raid. All of this has no bearing on them whatsoever.

And what would be the problem to fix it for the people who suffer under all the flawed systems? You act like only casuals scrubs play this game. Why even have class or raid tuning or whole dev teams dedicated to these tasks if it doesn't matter - even Blizzard disagrees with you here.

[MaryJay]

Even when certain Mythic raid events require 54 traits it doesnt mean that someone forces you to kill em at first week, at a steady pace you can get more then enough AP to do everything before new content is coming out.
And if you are playing 80 hrs a week and you feel bad about it, there is noone else to blame except yourself.

Ion is right on this one.

[Jtbrig7390]

And what would be the problem to fix it for the people who suffer under all the flawed systems? You act like only casuals scrubs play this game. Why even have class or raid tuning or whole dev teams dedicated to these tasks if it doesn't matter - even Blizzard disagrees with you here.

You don't seem happy, maybe you should unsub.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

I like how one of my guildmate mocks me for not having 54 traits yet (I got 52) but he refuses to buy 915 BoE belt that gives him 1-2% dps up. He farmed like what 12-16 hours for 1% dps up but refuses to farm 5 hours to buy item that gives same dps increase.

[Anon56]

They design their xpac like a diablo grindfest and then tell you it's your own fault for getting bored or burning out.

Priceless.

[Osmeric]

Ion is right in a narrow sense. He's wrong in a larger sense.

The issue here is that they're trying to do two things that are just incompatible.

The first thing they are trying to do is not allow power increase to quickly cap out, either weekly or over longer periods. If you want to play they want you to feel it's not useless. So far so good.

The second thing is they are trying to challenge the best players in a kind of PvE competition.

These two things don't go together. They mean at the top, endless grinding for marginal improvements is part of the race. If you don't do that, you are behind in the race. Either you get benched in favor of other players in your guild that ARE willing to do the grind, or your guild falls behind other guilds that are willing to do that.

The non-hypocritical thing for them to have done was give up on that second goal. In M EN they had done that.

[InfiniteCharger]

Why do "casuals" even need AP or INFINITE AP? What content are they doing that even remotely requires it?
What do they need BIS legendaries for?

AP grinds should be only for those doing hardcore content.
Alternate "casual" progression should not overlap and compete with raiding progression.
WQs should not be rewarding better gear than raids.... ever.
M+ should be the only way to get gear on par to raids level but not better.
Increase AP rewards for raids content only. Tie legendary drop rates to the level of raids you run.
TF and WF should proc primarily for Raid content not WQs and not as much from M+.
Problem solved. Less AP available because AP is harder to get. Raids more realistically tuned. Grinding a lot less demanding.
Everybody has some form of progression without this endless treadmill.

[Rikkof]

Why do "casuals" even need AP or INFINITE AP? What content are they doing that even remotely requires it?
What do they need BIS legendaries for?

AP grinds should be only for those doing hardcore content.
Alternate "casual" progression should not overlap and compete with raiding progression.
WQs should not be rewarding better gear than raids.... ever.
M+ should be the only way to get gear on par to raids level but not better.
Increase AP rewards for raids content only. Tie legendary drop rates to the level of raids you run.
TF and WF should proc primarily for Raid content not WQs and not as much from M+.
Problem solved. Less AP available because AP is harder to get. Raids more realistically tuned. Grinding a lot less demanding.
Everybody has some form of progression without this endless treadmill.

so casuals are better off in blue or green gear quality?
i dont see your logic here, even if i kill boars all day i still want to get the best this game has to offer, understand, bro?

[XDurionX]

And what would be the problem to fix it for the people who suffer under all the flawed systems? You act like only casuals scrubs play this game. Why even have class or raid tuning or whole dev teams dedicated to these tasks if it doesn't matter - even Blizzard disagrees with you here.

I would send people who "suffer" because of a video game to see a psychiatrist.

Ion obviously has the bigger picture, which all of you refuse to ackowledge. The World of warcraft doesn't revolve around you, or mythic raiding for that matter. And your claim that it is, i cite, "50% of the content", shows how delusional you are. I don't do pvp or pet battles, but i don't complain that they are in game, for some players seem to enjoy it.

[Mamut]

What you don't understand is that the world doesn't revolve around you nor other scrubs who chose to ignore 50% of the content this game offers. When you leave your arrogance behind and realise that a fix to the AP problem wouldn't hurt you nor other scrubs, but just make the game better for people who enjoy competition. Also, the AP problem is only one out of three I've mentioned. Maybe start reading before you reply with another arrogant bullshit of a post.

I love how you call his reply as "arrogant bullshit" while you call other people scrubs only because they dont care about mythic raiding. I love how you pulled 50% number while mythic raiding people are like how many? 5%? I dont have the current statistic but for WoD raids the numbers were really low (like 0,9% for Blackhand mythic?). So I would say the world does not revolve around mythic raiders but around those "scrubs" you mentioned.

[Hctaz]

Considering there's probably less than a handful frost DKs on any given server with a 925 horn of valor I doubt it's needed. It's something people want, sure, but it's nowhere near necessary.

Not "needed" no, but it certainly helps. A lot of the top frost dks have some of the top dungeon trinkets though like the Chaos Talisman or a high rolled... whatever Nightbane's is.

[Deleted]

I love how you call his reply as "arrogant bullshit" while you call other people scrubs only because they dont care about mythic raiding. I love how you pulled 50% number while mythic raiding people are like how many? 5%? I dont have the current statistic but for WoD raids the numbers were really low (like 0,9% for Blackhand mythic?). So I would say the world does not revolve around mythic raiders but around those "scrubs" you mentioned.

Yes, and he calls the other part of the community elitist tryhards who should see a psychiatrist. I was eloquent enough in this scenario. Also, the ignoring 50% of the content part does not ultimately mean that this 50% covers mythic content - he described a scenario in which a player is playing 10h/week and is, following his opinion, totally fine with the game and it's systems. Perhaps try reading more than a single post next time.

Also, taking my alt mage as an example. He only clears the current heroic raid and does his daily chests since release. His weapon is 43 and he obtained 3 bad legendaries. In the case of a fire mage looting 3 bad legendaries... well, you can forget about doing competitive damage. His play time accounts for approx 6 hours a week - I don't see how anyone would be happy in the same scenario.

- - - Updated - - -

I would send people who "suffer" because of a video game to see a psychiatrist.

Ion obviously has the bigger picture, which all of you refuse to ackowledge. The World of warcraft doesn't revolve around you, or mythic raiding for that matter. And your claim that it is, i cite, "50% of the content", shows how delusional you are. A don't do pvp or pet battles, but i don't complain that they are in game, for some players seem to enjoy it.

Keep ignoring the main question. How would fixing the problems of one part of the community negatively affect the other part?

[IceMan1763]

Ion is right in a narrow sense. He's wrong in a larger sense.

The issue here is that they're trying to do two things that are just incompatible.

The first thing they are trying to do is not allow power increase to quickly cap out, either weekly or over longer periods. If you want to play they want you to feel it's not useless. So far so good.

The second thing is they are trying to challenge the best players in a kind of PvE competition.

These two things don't go together. They mean at the top, endless grinding for marginal improvements is part of the race. If you don't do that, you are behind in the race. Either you get benched in favor of other players in your guild that ARE willing to do the grind, or your guild falls behind other guilds that are willing to do that.

The non-hypocritical thing for them to have done was give up on that second goal. In M EN they had done that.

Very level headed response! As an aside, if Ion's goal was to get the casual players and the Mythic raiders at each other's throats, he has succeeded in spades.

Quickly with Mythic EN... I don't think they intended to have it be so easy. I believe they didn't expect for the guilds to have as many traits and legendaries as they did. That's just my opinion though.

I think it's sad you believe the answer is to drop any support for high end competitive raiding. I firmly believe raiding is the core that grew the game to 12 million subs. Some people may try to discount that, but if you start doing the math based on WowProgress you find that there was an ENORMOUS number of people who raided then. PVP was also much more popular then, and I believe the AP system (and general lack of proper balancing) has stomped out the majority of that population as well.

In a mission to provide the illusion of non stop progress for everyone, they have killed both high end raiding and PVP.

I do think there are answers where everyone (well, like 90%, you can't make everyone happy) could be happy for the most part. I don't think a weekly rolling cap for AP would have any affect on the casual player, but would be a welcome relief for mythic raiders. Turning off paragon traits in both PVP and mythic raiding is another option as well.

Either way, ignoring problems created by their design (7.2 is still ignoring... in fact, they're doubling down on the design) and then laying blame on guild leaders I find disgusting. It confirms the general consensus from a large portion of their still remaining and departed playerbase that this dev team is full of ego maniacal assholes who think their pet design is best and refuse to listen to feedback... even when it is overwhelming in volume.

[Deleted]

Very level headed response! As an aside, if Ion's goal was to get the casual players and the Mythic raiders at each other's throats, he has succeeded in spades.

Quickly with Mythic EN... I don't think they intended to have it be so easy. I believe they didn't expect for the guilds to have as many traits and legendaries as they did. That's just my opinion though.

I think it's sad you believe the answer is to drop any support for high end competitive raiding. I firmly believe raiding is the core that grew the game to 12 million subs. Some people may try to discount that, but if you start doing the math based on WowProgress you find that there was an ENORMOUS number of people who raided then. PVP was also much more popular then, and I believe the AP system (and general lack of proper balancing) has stomped out the majority of that population as well.

In a mission to provide the illusion of non stop progress for everyone, they have killed both high end raiding and PVP.

I do think there are answers where everyone (well, like 90%, you can't make everyone happy) could be happy for the most part. I don't think a weekly rolling cap for AP would have any affect on the casual player, but would be a welcome relief for mythic raiders. Turning off paragon traits in both PVP and mythic raiding is another option as well.

Either way, ignoring problems created by their design (7.2 is still ignoring... in fact, they're doubling down on the design) and then laying blame on guild leaders I find disgusting. It confirms the general consensus from a large portion of their still remaining and departed playerbase that this dev team is full of ego maniacal assholes who think their pet design is best and refuse to listen to feedback... even when it is overwhelming in volume.

Nice post, thank you. I fully agree.

[Flurryfang]

Why do "casuals" even need AP or INFINITE AP? What content are they doing that even remotely requires it?
What do they need BIS legendaries for?

AP grinds should be only for those doing hardcore content.
Alternate "casual" progression should not overlap and compete with raiding progression.
WQs should not be rewarding better gear than raids.... ever.
M+ should be the only way to get gear on par to raids level but not better.
Increase AP rewards for raids content only. Tie legendary drop rates to the level of raids you run.
TF and WF should proc primarily for Raid content not WQs and not as much from M+.
Problem solved. Less AP available because AP is harder to get. Raids more realistically tuned. Grinding a lot less demanding.
Everybody has some form of progression without this endless treadmill.

Casuals like AP because it comes something to work for. While most casuals don't need the power to beat some challenging content, they play the game in the hunt for power, to get stronger. They might not want to really use it for anything, but they still seek it. That is why AP is great for the casual playerbase. You can do pretty relaxing content and still get powerfull. You are not forced to go into some hardcore scenario just to get small power increases.

Again, AP is not giving the largest power increase in the game, gear is, but AP is a symbolic achievement. It could give 0.1 dmg/healing/armor increase, but aslong as it is an increase, it is a reward and that is what is important to many players no matter their attitude towards the game.

[XDurionX]

Keep ignoring the main question. How would fixing the problems of one part of the community negatively affect the other part?

There is no such thing as a solution that doesn't affect other groups of players. You always have to look at all of them. Caps don't work for obvious reasons. They could disable artifact and legendary boni in mythic instances, then heroic raiders would ask why they had to grind to achieve their goals and mythic raiders don't, and rightfully so.

It would be INSANE to let a few hundred people, who this very topic is about, dictate the game design. No matter what you do, there will always be people who don't know any borders and will play excessively. They consume all the content by playing 150 hours in two weeks, and then complain that there's nothing to do. Some thousand people have a skewed perception. "I can't raid because i don't have legendary XY or artifact Level 54", which is bullshit. There's nothing Blizz can do to fix this.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Like it or not, Ion is right about this. It is your fault if you consume content so quickly that you burn out.

[IceMan1763]

Caps don't work for obvious reasons.

I just flat out disagree with this. They have had many caps going back to the inception of the game and there was maybe a handful of people who complained about them.

So who does Blizzard side with? People who don't like caps because they want to keep playing non stop and growing in power each week or those who want a cap so a person with a job and family could still reach it and be on an even playing field if they are dedicated and can make the time?

The fact that you want to have the system work for the small handful of people with no self control I think is telling. The hilarious part is you look at mythic raiders (all of whom are affected by this, not just the ones grinding non stop) and call them "addicts" when 99% of them would LOVE a rolling cap to be put in place.

[Supercool]

Like it or not, Ion is right about this. It is your fault if you consume content so quickly that you burn out.

The funny thing is he was saying the same thing about "consuming content too quickly" in WoD and nobody believed him then. Even pointing out the most of the people complaining there was nothing to do hadn't finished the flying meta achievements (but wanted flying given to them anyway).

I wonder what changed.

[XDurionX]

The fact that you want to have the system work for the small handful of people with no self control I think is telling. The hilarious part is you look at mythic raiders (all of whom are affected by this, not just the ones grinding non stop) and call them "addicts" when 99% of them would LOVE a rolling cap to be put in place.

I really don't. "Mythic raiders" don't have to grind anything to raid mythic. They can kill bosses in 6 weeks when they have enough gear or everyone and their mother has Level 54. They CHOSE to take part in the world first race, and clear the raid in week 2 they imposed this pressure on themselves. They knew what this means. There's months til ToS will be live. There is more than enough time. They wanted to grind this to take part in the race.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you don't want to dedicate enough time to be in a top ten guild, then maybe look for a #100 guild. If that's too much, look for a #1000 guild. There is noone to blame but themselves.