Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Deleted]

Why should Blizzard always cater for the needs and whims of the mythic raiders?

They definitely don't cater to the needs of pvp-ers and, according to you, not to those of mythic raiders either. So...who exactly is left after all the people that Blizzard pisses on, have quit the game?!

[rda]

idk why they can only cater for one side or the other all of a sudden, previous expansions were able to reach a much better point of balance between mythic raiders and casuals both being happy with the game

That's because they aren't catering to casuals here, they are solving the task of hooking people on the game without making content, and it so happens that in this particular case raiders (and PVPers) are hit immediately, while casuals are going to be hit later (when they see that they got 5% of new content and 95% repeats of old content with new difficulty modes and artifact levels).

[Deleted]

idk why they can only cater for one side or the other all of a sudden, previous expansions were able to reach a much better point of balance between mythic raiders and casuals both being happy with the game

Not entirely sure which expansion you're referring to? The only content updates in WoD were raids. You can't even start to argue there was a balance between the two - WoD was pure raider service expac from start to finish.

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They definitely don't cater to the needs of pvp-ers and, according to you, not to those of mythic raiders either. So...who exactly is left after all the people that Blizzard pisses on, have quit the game?!

I'd guess the majority. 95% of the playerbase.

[Deleted]

You're reaching hard here. Real hard. Players don't go home and organize team practices. Players would, though, take some pills if it gave them an edge, and the NFL didn't forbid it.

The artifact grind will end, yes. I'm at 54/51/35 traits for my pure DPS class. I can see the end in sight. I'll probably even reach it before 7.2 and have some time off. Then a new grind will be introduced, and it will be even more onerous than the current grind. They're making it exponentially harder to grind in 7.2, which is where most of these new complaints are coming from. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that this is, by far, the most out-of-raid time I've had to spend to be prepared for a raid, ever. Prepared, not over prepared. And I only do one character, 11 hours a week, because I'm a Mythic raider who is supposedly taking it easy.

They are also making the increase in power weaker than pre 7.1.5

So... a player that has played 2 times as much is, in blizzards words, ~3% stronger than me. Seems fair imho.

Aren't some people saying that Legion delivered exactly what "casuals" wanted and it's only those super hardcore assholes wanting to ruin it? Read the thread.

I am reading it and people say it's not casual at all anymore because they have invest semi-pro level of time to be competitive.
So, these viewpoints are contradicting each other.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Not entirely sure which expansion you're referring to? The only content updates in WoD were raids. You can't even start to argue there was a balance between the two - WoD was pure raider service expac from start to finish

maybe quote my entire post?

not sure why wod raiders paradise or legion casuals paradise are now the only two options worth considering

pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to wod

[Deleted]

Raiders didn't put 54 fucking traits in. Period. Blizz knows that if you make it appealing and beneficial to do stupid shit, people will. This isn't news. This is game design basic 101 shit.

If you are doing stupid shit because someone is able to make that appealing to you, i think you have greater problems than playing or not playing a videogame.

[rda]

I'd guess the majority. 95% of the playerbase.

PVPers are half the playerbase already (if we take both rated and unrated), so if you remove them, the 95% above is probably better worded as "95% of those who keep playing". PVEers of the kind that do raids other than LFR are less numerous, but you can see the perspective already.

But more importantly, everyone is hit by this stupidity. It's just that raiders and rated PVPers are on the front lines. But everyone will feel it, give it time (and you will see that there is next to no new content and instead all you have are extensions to the stupid grinds).

[Dizzeeyooo]

If you are doing stupid shit because someone is able to make that appealing to you, i think you have greater problems than playing or not playing a videogame.

people do stupid shit that gives them a slight advantage at something they enjoy/value all the time in every aspect of life

[eschatological]

So - remove a raid day or two instead of wasting all those pulls? Take it easy until you hit the required mark?

Yeah, but some players play this game to be competitive, even if it's only with themselves. That's how we have fun. And yes, we still have fun bashing our heads against bosses, because we enjoy each other's company. But tension is high if there's a perception that people aren't putting in the effort and that we could actually potentially not be bashing our heads in if not for the failure of some of our raiders in farming some bullshit. As a raid leader, I've lost about a dozen good raiders to the sheer time commitment to raid at THE SAME LEVEL that required maybe 2 hours outside of raid PER WEEK for the past 4 expansions.

The point is, this is a hobby for most of us. Relatively few outside of the top 5 guilds in the world make any sort of living at this. I'm doing this for fun, and Blizzard is requiring more hours than I have, as a working adult, to have fun like I've had fun for the past 9 years since Wrath launched.

[theyanger]

If you are doing stupid shit because someone is able to make that appealing to you, i think you have greater problems than playing or not playing a videogame.

Whether you think that is true or not is irrelevant to the fact that they KNOW that this is the result.

The grind required by AP this expansion is beneficial to nobody - super casual players aren't even hitting 40 traits yet, let alone 54. Nobody who has 54 traits ENJOYED that fucking grind, believe me. Even if they just shut it off now it would take the entire expansion for casual players to max one of their weapons (if they'd do it at all at the current rate, it's that slow).

There is simply no reason that being proficient enough to raid at a US100 level (a shit tier guild as it were) requires as much grinding as this expansion does.

And make no mistake, you're not getting into even a REMOTELY reasonable guild if you haven't ground out 54 traits like a month or more ago. Let alone shit like legendaries, alts, whatever else.

Split raids were a problem and they even admitted it, Ion himself admitted it, at blizzcon two years ago, but rather than try to curb the issue they COMPOUNDED IT twice with both legendaries and artifacts, making the required amount of time at each tier of progression even higher than it has ever been.

[Deleted]

people do stupid shit that gives them a slight advantage at something they enjoy/value all the time in every aspect of life

If what you get at the end is enjoyment, then it is not stupid shit.
But if you end feeling miserable or burnout, then it is for sure.

[eschatological]

They are also making the increase in power weaker than pre 7.1.5

So... a player that has played 2 times as much is, in blizzards words, ~3% stronger than me. Seems fair imho.



I am reading it and people say it's not casual at all anymore because they have invest semi-pro level of time to be competitive.
So, these viewpoints are contradicting each other.

First of all, their math is ridiculously bad. 2k of your main stat with about ~20s uptime every minute FOR THE FIRST RANK is like a double prolonged power potion compressed into 1/3rd the time, so roughly 2/3rds a prolonged power potion. Except it's for the whole fight. The point is, by making the cost exponential, you make it impossible to do. Yet, at the same time, if you're online, and not getting AP from something, you'll be wasting your time, because you could always be working towards that next rank.

Secondly, the expansion is for "casuals" in that you always have something to do, even if it's just a stupid grind. But to be competitive, it requires........a stupid grind that is more hours than anything seen for nearly a decade.

[Deleted]

Classic blizzard right there, blaming the players and not themselves. Nighthold mythic beyond the 3rd boss is tuned for 54 artifact traits, so im guessing that's the player's fault...

Awesome logic, except...did you think they have data and know how many people already have reached 54 traits b4 nighthold released? Yes a bunch of people did reach 54 which means they have to adjust for the realities of the situation and make mythic hard for the nolifers initially, as they can always nerf it later for the more casual mythic raiders (as they did with ToV, but not EN cus EN was a joke anyway).

[Deleted]

Nobody who has 54 traits ENJOYED that fucking grind, believe me.

I do, i really believe you, that is mainly the reason i am at 39 traits right now, because i do refuse to grind AP doing things i dislike.
I only have the AP that comes from playing the parts of the game i am interested in, that is why i am enjoying the game.

[Donald Hellscream]

Firing someone who being right seems a tad excessive, you might not like the message but it doesn't mean it is a lie.

Top players decide to play for god knows how many hours a week, top players gets burned out due to how they chose to play the game, is it really that fucking surprising? And no it isn't Blizzard's fault when someone burns out for playing too much.

[Sarevokcz]

Yeah, but some players play this game to be competitive, even if it's only with themselves. That's how we have fun. And yes, we still have fun bashing our heads against bosses, because we enjoy each other's company. But tension is high if there's a perception that people aren't putting in the effort and that we could actually potentially not be bashing our heads in if not for the failure of some of our raiders in farming some bullshit. As a raid leader, I've lost about a dozen good raiders to the sheer time commitment to raid at THE SAME LEVEL that required maybe 2 hours outside of raid PER WEEK for the past 4 expansions.

The point is, this is a hobby for most of us. Relatively few outside of the top 5 guilds in the world make any sort of living at this. I'm doing this for fun, and Blizzard is requiring more hours than I have, as a working adult, to have fun like I've had fun for the past 9 years since Wrath launched.

Blizzard doesnt require anything, its on YOU and YOUR TEAM. Either show us all those M NH sub 1% wipes, where traits might have actually made the difference or stop looking at traits for fault and instead focus on your and your teams gameplay, they will likely get way more dps out of playing better than out of couple of new traits...

[Deleted]

And make no mistake, you're not getting into even a REMOTELY reasonable guild if you haven't ground out 54 traits like a month or more ago. Let alone shit like legendaries, alts, whatever else.

Again i do agree, but then we are talking here about a problem either with raiding guilds or with raiding in general.

[Jngizu]

That's where you're wrong. Mythic raiding is designed around playing 80 hours a week. And Ion is the head designer.

Accepting ZERO responsibility for HIS and HIS TEAM'S design is the absolute pinnacle of hubris. This guy is so full of himself it honestly makes me sick.

It's designed that way if you want to clear the first week. Blizzard knows those guilds will raid insane amounts, so should they do? Make an easier raid like EN that got cleared in one day and every top guild complained is undertuned? Or overtune a raid slightly so it's very hard to clear without being 54 pts and BiS legendaries. No matter what they do, top guilds will complain. There is no balance possible here. Even gating bosses will lead to problems anyway because top guilds will clear that wing in one or two days and then complain.

So please, tell us what would you have them do? It's a lose-lose situation for them. So what they do, is balancing around more casual players Which they should, because those top guilds represent a very small percentage of the player base anyway. And no matter what Blizzard does, they will complain.

And real talk, if your guild hasn't killed M Krosus right now, you're in a shit guild with shit players, 54 points were definitely mandatory the first two weeks, but with the gear, it shouldn't anymore. So if you're in a top 200 guild and they require you to have full traits, well, that's your fault for joining a stupid guild.

[Deleted]

Blizzard doesnt require anything, its on YOU and YOUR TEAM. Either show us all those M NH sub 1% wipes, where traits might have actually made the difference or stop looking at traits for fault and instead focus on your and your teams gameplay, they will likely get way more dps out of playing better than out of couple of new traits...

3000 trilliax kills, 1000 krosus kills.

Either show us your krosus logs without the majority of the raid being at 54 traits or stop talking out of your ass

[eschatological]

Blizzard doesnt require anything, its on YOU and YOUR TEAM. Either show us all those M NH sub 1% wipes, where traits might have actually made the difference or stop looking at traits for fault and instead focus on your and your teams gameplay, they will likely get way more dps out of playing better than out of couple of new traits...

My team's gameplay is better than it has been in past expansions, just to stay the same level of competitiveness, because of the grind. We're unequivocally better than we were last expansion in terms of skill. You know how I know this? Because our starting lineup from the last few expansions are riding the bench now, even with their traits maxed. But because we have maybe....5 or so raiders who are good enough to be on the team, but still below 50 traits, we're falling behind. And that's not including the bench. And the dozen players I've churned through in 5 months of this expansion.

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3000 trilliax kills, 1000 krosus kills.

Either show us your krosus logs without the majority of the raid being at 54 traits or stop talking out of your ass

Honestly, it's like people don't realize that you literally can't survive that orbs on that last platform without 54 traits + massive cooldowns just for the stamina it gives you.