Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Deleted]

None of HM, BRF and HFC was tuned like NH when current.
Skipping Gorefiend you had 7/13 bosses for guilds who would be called 'not Mythic guilds' by some here.

Yes, months after its release after it has been nerved through the + 10 ilvl - when heroic guilds suddenly had gear, as if they had cleared myth. But prior to that? Surely not, and the indirect nerv to NH will come in form of 7.2 aswell. Exept the first 3 Bosses tuning is perfect in NH.

[Sarevokcz]

Yes, months after its release after it has been nerved through the + 10 ilvl - when heroic guilds suddenly had gear, as if they had cleared myth. But prior to that? Surely not, and the indirect nerv to NH will come in form of 7.2 aswell. Exept the first 3 Bosses tuning is perfect in NH.

tuning is fine, the gear curve is not, you dont feel the sense of progression each week getting close to the kill with better gear and when you finally get the kill, half the drops go to disenchant, since people already have WFs from heroic. you know theres something broken, when after 8 weeks your raid has worse gear than what top guilds had on mythic week one after splitruns, we literally have to play on their level to beat the bosses they killed that week and obviously most of us cant do that, nor is it realistic to expect everyone to play at their level, gear is what helped worse guilds to steadily progress in the past, its far worse now

[Tojara]

It would be easier if they just, uh, made mythic bosses drop more or higher iLvL loot than they currently do.

One of the biggest problems is that split running this expansion with TF as a system is even more rewarding. 6 pieces of loot, with a pretty good chance of them being heavily WF/TF being funneled into 3-4 people over multiple raids is a pretty good way to gear, it's even more efficient than it was in the past. Meanwhile you do Mythic with a static 20 and get 4 pieces of loot, more often than not some of that gets disenchanted.

Like mentioned above, people are now arriving at the iLvL some guilds had the first week of Mythic just now, which is pretty crazy if you think about it. I'd like to think we killed Archimonde Mythic pretty fast (just for reference, we killed it ~35th in the US). We were something like 7-9 iLvLs ahead of the first few guilds to kill it. Meanwhile, compared to today with about the exact same time frame (we are about to kill Augur, again, for reference) we are a little bit over 3 iLvLs that the first few guilds managed to kill Mythic Gul'dan with.

My complaint isn't so much with split running, nor is it with titan forging. While I wish split running didn't exist, I recognize it's evils and I recognize their is no real way to fix it that would make everybody happy. Titan forging as a system does exactly what it's intended to do, and it's a fine system in itself. My problem however is that it makes heroic far too efficient, but at the same time I obviously don't want to nerf heroic either.

My solution would be to widen the gap between Heroic/Mythic as far as iLvL goes and keep the balance scheme they implemented in Nighthold roughly the same (maybe with some tweaks obviously), that or just simply up the drops. This would make Mythic difficulty feel a bit more rewarding, and might help some guilds get over the hump. Some guilds obviously don't belong in Mythic, but it feels kinda of counter productive to and wrong to go back and farm heroic, and maybe get some upgrades off the few bosses you can kill in Mythic. Mythic should sort of nerf itself slowly by inflating iLvLs at a gradual curve, what's happening now is that the rate at which iLvLs inflate isn't really that fast.

Such a change really doesn't cheapen the experience a whole lot for those guilds who are racing. It's expected, at best, that they are going to get at most (at least from previous trends) a couple resets of Mythic gear before completing the dungeon. It really wouldn't shift the difficulty all that much, and in the event it does, you could just make the last couple bosses a bit harder to compensate. All a math game really, and it would make progression smoother for guilds that touch Mythic after WF raiders. Keep in mind that Mythic difficulty tag certainly isn't for just one group of players. It's very clear that tiers exist within an instance that appeal and group different "Mythic" guilds a part from one another.

[OrcsRLame]

It would be easier if they just, uh, made mythic bosses drop more or higher iLvL loot than they currently do.

One of the biggest problems is that split running this expansion with TF as a system is even more rewarding. 6 pieces of loot, with a pretty good chance of them being heavily WF/TF being funneled into 3-4 people over multiple raids is a pretty good way to gear, it's even more efficient than it was in the past. Meanwhile you do Mythic with a static 20 and get 4 pieces of loot, more often than not some of that gets disenchanted.

Like mentioned above, people are now arriving at the iLvL some guilds had the first week of Mythic just now, which is pretty crazy if you think about it. I'd like to think we killed Archimonde Mythic pretty fast (just for reference, we killed it ~35th in the US). We were something like 7-9 iLvLs ahead of the first few guilds to kill it. Meanwhile, compared to today with about the exact same time frame (we are about to kill Augur, again, for reference) we are a little bit over 3 iLvLs that the first few guilds managed to kill Mythic Gul'dan with.

My complaint isn't so much with split running, nor is it with titan forging. While I wish split running didn't exist, I recognize it's evils and I recognize their is no real way to fix it that would make everybody happy. Titan forging as a system does exactly what it's intended to do, and it's a fine system in itself. My problem however is that it makes heroic far too efficient, but at the same time I obviously don't want to nerf heroic either.

My solution would be to widen the gap between Heroic/Mythic as far as iLvL goes and keep the balance scheme they implemented in Nighthold roughly the same (maybe with some tweaks obviously), that or just simply up the drops. This would make Mythic difficulty feel a bit more rewarding, and might help some guilds get over the hump. Some guilds obviously don't belong in Mythic, but it feels kinda of counter productive to and wrong to go back and farm heroic, and maybe get some upgrades off the few bosses you can kill in Mythic. Mythic should sort of nerf itself slowly by inflating iLvLs at a gradual curve, what's happening now is that the rate at which iLvLs inflate isn't really that fast.

Such a change really doesn't cheapen the experience a whole lot for those guilds who are racing. It's expected, at best, that they are going to get at most (at least from previous trends) a couple resets of Mythic gear before completing the dungeon. It really wouldn't shift the difficulty all that much, and in the event it does, you could just make the last couple bosses a bit harder to compensate. All a math game really, and it would make progression smoother for guilds that touch Mythic after WF raiders. Keep in mind that Mythic difficulty tag certainly isn't for just one group of players. It's very clear that tiers exist within an instance that appeal and group different "Mythic" guilds a part from one another.

The real issue imo is that we capped AP. If there was a steady stat increase every week from AP, the smaller ilvl gain over time wouldn't matter as much.

Blizzard seems to have realized this too, with it being impossible to cap out the new 50 point trait. Every week the bosses will get just a tad bit easier in ToS.

[Deleted]

The bosses are tuned around 54 traits during the progression and low equip. The most guilds with only 3/10 bosses have already a higher ilvl than the raid setup for the first gul dan mythic kill. A major part of the guilds have already gear levels around 910. With 910 there isnt a single boss anymore which requires 54 traits. But it will never happen that someone with less than 54 will be a part of an group which is going to kill elisande or guldan... even 925 ilvl wouldnt help. Its called halo effect. If you not have 54 traits, you have the wrong attitude/mentality.

[Toybox]

The bosses are tuned around 54 traits during the progression and low equip. The most guilds with only 3/10 bosses have already a higher ilvl than the raid setup for the first gul dan mythic kill. A major part of the guilds have already gear levels around 910. With 910 there isnt a single boss anymore which requires 54 traits. But it will never happen that someone with less than 54 will be a part of an group which is going to kill elisande or guldan... even 925 ilvl wouldnt help. Its called halo effect. If you not have 54 traits, you have the wrong attitude/mentality.

Less than 50 guilds in the world have an average raid iLvl of 910 according to Wowprogres. My guild's currently progressing Star Augur, and I believe only 2/3 people are at that mark, with the average being around 906.

[Deiae]

Very few people or guilds with 910 won't have 54.

(...)with it being impossible to cap out the new 50 point trait. Every week the bosses will get just a tad bit easier in ToS.

Every week the bosses will get easier due to power gain due to AP until artefact knowledge stops to rise and you hit the asymptote of the exponentially rising costs of the new traits and you gain no new power stemming from AP at a significant rate.

[Deja Thoris]

The bosses are tuned around 54 traits during the progression and low equip. The most guilds with only 3/10 bosses have already a higher ilvl than the raid setup for the first gul dan mythic kill. A major part of the guilds have already gear levels around 910. With 910 there isnt a single boss anymore which requires 54 traits. But it will never happen that someone with less than 54 will be a part of an group which is going to kill elisande or guldan... even 925 ilvl wouldnt help. Its called halo effect. If you not have 54 traits, you have the wrong attitude/mentality.

Those figures are complete and utter bullshit.

[Toybox]

Why's the title still 7 bosses to 54 when Blizzard themselves confirmed only Augur/Elisande/Gul'dan are?

[OrcsRLame]

Very few people or guilds with 910 won't have 54.



Every week the bosses will get easier due to power gain due to AP until artefact knowledge stops to rise and you hit the asymptote of the exponentially rising costs of the new traits and you gain no new power stemming from AP at a significant rate.

That's going to take like 2 months though. At that point the extra traits will have already "nerfed" the raid to the point that the 3/10m guilds right now will be starting progression on the last 2 bosses of ToS.

[Deiae]

I am not sure 2 months is enough for 2000 guilds to be progressing the last two bosses of the current raid (which will then be ToS). That is very optimistic. And I don't see the infinite trait to be powerful enough for that anyway.

[Deleted]

Less than 50 guilds in the world have an average raid iLvl of 910 according to Wowprogres. My guild's currently progressing Star Augur, and I believe only 2/3 people are at that mark, with the average being around 906.

Those figures are complete and utter bullshit.

around 910 doesn't mean exactly 910

Look at the first kills. From the numbers point of view 905 ilvl with 54 traits are enough to clear the raid (sidenote: star augur prenerf ilvl 902.xx). This brings us inevitably to the conclusion that higher ilvls can compensate trait levels. The important thing is to hit the necessary dps/hps values and it doesnt matter how you get them. But again, its a numbers point of view, skill is not into account.

Over 1200 guilds have higher ilvls than the top 3 on their first NH mythic clear. My definition of "around 910" is a frame of 908-912. Roughly 260 guilds are in this ilvl frame. Remember, guild ilvl = the highest equiped ilvl on a non-specific boss kill.

[Sarevokcz]

around 910 doesn't mean exactly 910

Look at the first kills. From the numbers point of view 905 ilvl with 54 traits are enough to clear the raid (sidenote: star augur prenerf ilvl 902.xx). This brings us inevitably to the conclusion that higher ilvls can compensate trait levels. The important thing is to hit the necessary dps/hps values and it doesnt matter how you get them. But again, its a numbers point of view, skill is not into account.

Over 1200 guilds have higher ilvls than the top 3 on their first NH mythic clear. My definition of "around 910" is a frame of 908-912. Roughly 260 guilds are in this ilvl frame. Remember, guild ilvl = the highest equiped ilvl on a non-specific boss kill.

at the moment, high ilevel (if any) compensates for the suboptimal comps, most guilds dont have the luxury to stack classes for specific bosses or have 54 traits in multiple specs per character, the mythic gear doesnt even get high enough to compensate for, say, average mythic skill unlike years of previous raids

[KaPe]

at the moment, high ilevel (if any) compensates for the suboptimal comps, most guilds dont have the luxury to stack classes for specific bosses or have 54 traits in multiple specs per character, the mythic gear doesnt even get high enough to compensate for, say, average mythic skill unlike years of previous raids

And even ignoring suboptimal comps - are we really comparing the World First guilds item level to that of typical Mythic guild and declaring that "well, since you're +2, you can drop 2 traits"? I mean, hell, such miniscule difference would barely make up for Vantus Runes, nevermind for skill gap between #1 guilds and those in triple digits. That's not even getting into legendaries and relics.

[Beoren]

This is the real problem with mythic raids atm:

[Ganzza]

I mean, that's a useless number without also knowing how many guilds are raiding in the first place, and how many of those 2,000 guilds have people short on artifact traits.

wowprogress.com

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1YLx62dih4

This video highlights an issue that yesterday´s Q&A completely marginalized. Matt Hoss tells the players that Titanforging is a bonus and content isn't balanced around it yet we already know that with 54 traits guilds aren't able to brute force fights at all. Technically Matt Hoss wasn't incorrect but he also completely ignored the fact that they designed fights to be almost reverse cheesy by making gear not influence player power in fights!

(Wait a minute, did one of the designers really tell us that content is not tuned around TF? Is it tuned around 890 + 2 legendaries + artifact with 3 890 relics? How dare he lie to the players like that?)

This seems to be a worrying trend where Blizzard doesn't realize that RNG things like titanforging are causing their development to become extremely disconnected from the fun aspect of raiding and instead forcing them to balance without gear in mind because you have to either

1) balance for titanforging and make fights way too difficult, like currently in NH and ToV pre-nerf, or
2) balance for it not existing making fights too easy, like in Emerald Nightmare

This problem is going to continue getting worse because Blizzard has created such a varying level of player power based purely on luck instead of effort and trust me, it will start to affect all levels of content and will backfire hard.

[stevenho]

1) balance for titanforging and make fights way too difficult, like currently in NH and ToV pre-nerf,

I'm sorry that current NH mythic is and prenerf ToV mythic was "way too difficult" for you. Mythic difficulty is not designed to be cleared by everyone. THere are thousands of guilds progressing it and some of them will finish before next tier. All is fine.

[Osmeric]

I'm sorry that current NH mythic is and prenerf ToV mythic was "way too difficult" for you. Mythic difficulty is not designed to be cleared by everyone. THere are thousands of guilds progressing it and some of them will finish before next tier. All is fine.

The issue is, the number of guilds that Mythic (at its current difficulty level) is apparently intended for is really small. It's not "thousands".

[stevenho]

The issue is, the number of guilds that Mythic (at its current difficulty level) is apparently intended for is really small. It's not "thousands".

It isn't? So I guess wowprogress showing almost 5000 guilds at 3/10 and higher is some kind of a hoax?