Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Nico3337]

for you to have 2.9M in any decent gear (around 900), you would need to be at like 30 traits. people VASTLY overestimate, how much HP you get out of traits, when in reality, you get like 15k per one. And noone is progressing krosus on alts with <30 traits, usually people are in the 45-50 range by now, thats like 60-150k less HP. I can guarantee you if people are constantly dying, its not because they have 3.1M HP...

Actually, I have 54 traits as arcane and at the time 40 in frost.. i wanted to try frost on star augar, but I had to swap back to arcane.. not because the damage wasn't there, it was, but because I couldn't survive the frost or fel debuff with 3.2mil hp...

[Sarevokcz]

Actually, I have 54 traits as arcane and at the time 40 in frost.. i wanted to try frost on star augar, but I had to swap back to arcane.. not because the damage wasn't there, it was, but because I couldn't survive the frost or fel debuff with 3.2mil hp...

thats possible, but lets be honest, almost everyone here argues about the 4 bosses after trilliax and not augur/ellisande/guldan. And 40 IS on the weaker side, majority of mythic raiders has more than that

[Deleted]

The problem with Artifact Power and boss design is that it's almost required to have AP levels.

Imo, all bosses SHOULD be killable with a raid with only level 35 weapons, while up to 54 make it easier.

However, good luck killing Mythic Guldan with a 35 weapon-only raid, it's basically not possible.

AP should be a beneficial bonus but NOT mandatory.

If they are killable with 35 traits, they are very easy with 54 traits...

In 3 or 4 weeks, 7.2 will go live and everyone will have 54 traits power level easily. So theres no issue here if progress is somehat slower here. And to be honest, most raids fail due to badly played mechanics, not dps ssues. We killed spellblade with 25 sec left til enrage and even then, we would have some time to kill him because he mstly melees around.

[cFortyfive]

The problem with Artifact Power and boss design is that it's almost required to have AP levels.

Imo, all bosses SHOULD be killable with a raid with only level 35 weapons, while up to 54 make it easier.

So in essence since at least at this point 54 is pretty trivial to reach the content should be trivial for pretty much everyone playing it ? I mean even rank 1000 guilds have above 35 traits on most of their members. It's the supposedly hardest content and aside from the challenge there isn't exactly much of a reward in the first place - nah sorry that doesn't sit well with me.

[stevenho]

This thread has the usual retarded replies peppered in "hurr durr its mythic - its meant to be hard hurr durr!"

The issue is clearly the difficulty curve. The drop off from 3/10M to killing more is massive. If tuning we better it would be a gradual drop from boss to boss, not a plummet off a cliff from 3 bosses killed to 4. As usual most of the people contributing to the thread missed this.

I agree - first 3 bosses are way too easy.
There clearly are 3 difficulty steps in EN - 3 bosses>4 bosses>3 bosses. The first step is just too small, that's why the second seems so big.

[Osmeric]

I agree - first 3 bosses are way too easy.
There clearly are 3 difficulty steps in EN - 3 bosses>4 bosses>3 bosses. The first step is just too small, that's why the second seems so big.

So, what you're saying is that only (say) 2000 guilds should have any kills in M NH at this point, even on the first boss?

Yes, this design philosophy will totally make Blizzard management see the value of continuing to put effort into making M raids. Good idea!

[Battlebeard]

If they are killable with 35 traits, they are very easy with 54 traits...

In 3 or 4 weeks, 7.2 will go live and everyone will have 54 traits power level easily. So theres no issue here if progress is somehat slower here. And to be honest, most raids fail due to badly played mechanics, not dps ssues. We killed spellblade with 25 sec left til enrage and even then, we would have some time to kill him because he mstly melees around.

Very easy with 54? Only 18 guilds in the world has killed Guldan, and they are all 54 weapon groups. I don't think any raid will EVER kill Guldan with a 35 group, even if they are alts of Method players etc. And definitely there won't be a first kill of him with a 35 group.

And no, 7.2 won't be out in 3-4 weeks, try 3-4 months

[styil]

The drop off is far too big. You might say that it's because the first 3 bosses are too easy, but it is what it is now and Blizzard needs to work with it. It's not healthy for Blizzard to leave the tuning like this.

They can either reduce the difficulty of M Krosus + M Aluriel and keep players progressing at a steadier pace, or they can leave the tuning as is, let many guilds hit a massive wall and disband/quit/unsub. That's just the reality of the situation. I think the prudent thing to do would be to reduce the HP/Damage of these two bosses by 5%. It would let some more people in, but they still won't be complete loot pinatas.

[Narwal]

It's probably the fact that there are guilds that do split runs to full 4 pc out their main raid on week one, and there are guilds who are just now starting to reap the benefit of 4 pc set bonuses.

Yes, 54 traits is important, but you have to consider it not in a vacuum, but in conjecture with set bonus dmg increases.

There is a pretty hefty jump from 3 to 4 bosses in this zone. There could be a more linear progression of difficulty, I wouldn't mind that at all and think it makes sense to do.

[Deja Thoris]

I agree - first 3 bosses are way too easy.
There clearly are 3 difficulty steps in EN - 3 bosses>4 bosses>3 bosses. The first step is just too small, that's why the second seems so big.

You aren't agreeing with me at all. You're twisting my words to suit your narrative.

[styil]

I mean the number of M Krosus kills 5 weeks in is only slightly more than the number of M Odyn kills 5 weeks in (1,000 vs 1,500).

Given the significant nerfs ToV received, and that Krosus is the first 'real' Mythic boss as some would claim, I actually wouldn't be surprised if Nighthold received some significant nerfs soon. Unless they want less than 80 guilds to clear this raid before Tomb of Sargeras.

[KaPe]

I mean the number of M Krosus kills 5 weeks in is only slightly more than the number of M Odyn kills 5 weeks in (1,000 vs 1,500).

Given the significant nerfs ToV received, and that Krosus is the first 'real' Mythic boss as some would claim, I actually wouldn't be surprised if Nighthold received some significant nerfs soon. Unless they want less than 80 guilds to clear this raid before Tomb of Sargeras.

Odyn had the added bonus of offering "bad" loot for high difficulty. Plenty of people didn't even bother with raiding ToV seriously, which shouldn't be the case with Krosus. More people trying = more people failing, which would actual make the number worse.

It's entirely possible they consider 7.2 to be a massive, scheduled nerf that will take care of everything. 'Course, the problem is that the patch is still several weeks away, will require AP grinding to take care of new traits and there's no telling just how balanced they are. Three mythic bosses don't offer a lot of gear between them, so actual upgrades are limited to Titanforged heroic loot.

[kamuimac]

The problem with Artifact Power and boss design is that it's almost required to have AP levels.

Imo, all bosses SHOULD be killable with a raid with only level 35 weapons, while up to 54 make it easier.

However, good luck killing Mythic Guldan with a 35 weapon-only raid, it's basically not possible.

AP should be a beneficial bonus but NOT mandatory.

the problem is when blizzard did this in EN half of mmochampion who put 40 + hours a week into MoS/mythic + farm etc whined about how trivial/easy that raid was.

so either way someone will cry

so blizzard tuned NH like they did to try to please that crowd.

[stevenho]

The tuning is perfect. I'm in a relaxed 7/10 guild and we have between 40 and 70 wipes for bosses 4-7.
We had 150 for Gorefiend.

[Tojara]

Personally I think the bigger issue is that 30 man groups doing Heroic gives far too lucrative loot, or Mythic simply doesn't give good enough loot.

Just to elaborate if you do heroic with 30 people you get what, 6-7 items? All with a fairly good chance to TF/WF, bringing them up to, or higher power than what you would get in Mythic. Mythic on the other hand only drop 4 pieces of loot. Yeah, on average if you're doing to purely clear all of Mythic with your 20 man group and compare it to somebody who clears all of Heroic with 30 people, the Mythic group will still grow faster. My point however is that you don't grow nearly as much as you should when doing Mythic content this expansion.

I actually like WF/TF, but I think the 15 iLvL split between the same Heroic and Mythic boss needs to actually grow higher than it did in the past. A guild that is 3/10 Mythic, realistically isn't going to be gaining much power from those 3 Mythic bosses they have on farm, and I think that's part of the issue that's stopping guilds from moving on from the first 3. You get more power, or at least a similar chance to grow in power simply by doing Heroic.

Basically what I'm getting at is there really isn't an organic progression curve, to where you can overpower stuff, at least like you could in the past. Heroic doesn't need to be nerfed, I just think that Mythic loot needs to be buffed. I realize a guild like Exorsus does like 5 split runs and there is a slight amount of diminishing returns for doing them, but guilds like my own (that don't do splits) have just barely in the last reset eclipsed Exorsus in iLvL from when they killed Mythic Gul'dan. I don't think splits are a problem either, again, I just think Mythic needs to drop more loot or it needs to have a higher base iLvL. Personally I think that would be the best way to increase power going forward.

I realize some of the issue is with the difficulty curve of the instance. The first three are a massive amount easier than the next four, so there really isn't a smooth progression curve. To be fair, the first boss or two are usually freebies, but I think Trilliax being too easy is actually causing a lot of problems. From my vantage point however, some of the bosses after Trilliax are just slightly too hard, and the shear fact that most guilds 3 heal Krosus to meet enrage is pretty indicative of the requirements asked (I realize even if he was nerfed health wise people would still 3 heal it, but part of my core balance problems with this game is when they have 3 heal fights or lower right out of the gate).

Trilliax really should have been slightly harder, and Krosus initially shouldn't be tuned around 3 healers with the DPS requirement it has. The release version of Spellblade was pretty stupid, but difficulty wise I think it's proper that the 'second' wing be a bit of a step up. Personally I think the biggest anomaly is Star Augur, which is leaps and bounds harder than any of the bosses past Trilliax (sans Elisande and Gul'dan, but I haven't tried either of them). One boss has to be the hardest in a section, so it's fine that he is the hardest, but he's basically on an entirely different level. Reading what other top guilds say, they agree as well, pointing out that Star Augur, for his position doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[Deleted]

I actually like WF/TF, but I think the 15 iLvL split between the same Heroic and Mythic boss needs to actually grow higher than it did in the past. A guild that is 3/10 Mythic, realistically isn't going to be gaining much power from those 3 Mythic bosses they have on farm, and I think that's part of the issue that's stopping guilds from moving on from the first 3. You get more power, or at least a similar chance to grow in power simply by doing Heroic

I think 15 iLvL is fine. Remember Wotlk or BC when they had to add -dodge auras to the last tier or block capped tanks in woltk. Adding more iLvL will only getting players to hit hard caps (armor, critical, etc) again. Also as a raider I do LRF only for runes, skip NHC because it isn´t rewarding. If you add more iLvL to mythic items in the next Tier hc will be obsolete or you have to bump all iLvL and hit hardcaps again.

[KaPe]

Keep in mind that it's not actually 15 item levels. It's 15 item levels between the same bosses, and 3/10 Mythic offers the lowest quality gear available. So it's only 5-10 extra levels, which is much less appealing upgrade and less of a power boost.

[Deleted]

Guys, WoW is so easy.

So easy that people swapped to LoL.

[Deleted]

The tuning is perfect. I'm in a relaxed 7/10 guild and we have between 40 and 70 wipes for bosses 4-7.
We had 150 for Gorefiend.

personaly havent killed anything in M NH but the difficulty curve does seem off somewhat to me, like hfc gorefiend was way harder then any boss before him and harder then 3bosses after him(though gorefiend is one of my least wiped on boss before first kill in wod was 30something only acording to exrt)

[KaPe]

personaly havent killed anything in M NH but the difficulty curve does seem off somewhat to me, like hfc gorefiend was way harder then any boss before him and harder then 3bosses after him(though gorefiend is one of my least wiped on boss before first kill in wod was 30something only acording to exrt)

Gorefiend was a sharp difficulty spike, but he did give you access to several easy bosses, which isn't the case here. The difficulty rapidly increases after 3 bosses and then has another jump at Augur.

It was also possible to skip Gorefiend if you had mythic friends with teleporter (a convoluted solution, but some people took advantage of it), thus gaining access to easy gear from 3 other bosses. He also got directly nerfed *and* every week offered a tiny, guaranteed increase in player power through rings. Sure, it didn't matter that much on a boss who was more of a control fight, but still.

And even though I killed Krosus, I still find him annoying. When your best DPSers are casters, you're not in for a fun time. The disparity between specs on this particular fight can be somewhat discouraging.