Europe starts to think the unthinkable: breaking up

[Kalis]

Le Pen and Farage are hard to describe other than nationalist prick. They hardly are competent politicians.

Le Pen is arguably the most popular politician in France and Farage just achieved his aim of getting the UK to leave the EU. I literally can't think of any other one-policy politician who has been as successful as Farage.

The greatest thing about the original EEC (or rather coal and steel treaty, if we go legit "original") was acknowledging that Germany isn't alone to blame for the troubles between France and Germany. France has attacked and annexed German territory just as much as we did. The difference is, the last time we went all out and exceeded anything resembling reasonable or rational limits. So, no. It's not to prevent Germany from slaughtering people. It's goal was to settle the question of who the region between France and Germany belongs to. In a final manner. And it did.

You could have settled that off the battlefield and not caused the deaths of tens of millions. That would have been nice.

What is moving from Belgium to France?

Considering I am referring to the most infamous issue of EU waste, you need to know that if you are going to claim the EU is not bloated and I will not help you out. So you find out, then you defend it and you are not doing a good job so far.

A nother poster even made a reference to it earlier.

[Kuntantee]

Nationalist pricks? Grow up.

Anything that does not align with the view of certain Central Europeans is considered "nationalist" nowadays. That word should be reserved for nationalists only. It's not a substitute for "I don't agree with you".

[Deleted]

That makes no sense. A common currency and an army are two very obvious signs of a nation. How many countries combine armies with their neighbours? Not have treaties, or co-operate, but have a unified army. I can't think of any off hand.

Who cares what other nations do. It should be clear by this point that the peculiarities of this corner of the globe don't quite match those of others.
The European states have a profound willingness to integrate here and there. And another profound willingness to bitch about it too. Yet still fact remains: they share stuff when it fits their interests, not at the command, or even suggestion of the EU. The EU is only the framework in which we debate these things.
A united army has been in the talks, inter allia, for years. Among several member states. At some point these things are brought to the forum that is the EU, and shaped into something that might interest all or most members. When it fits those interests, it's deployed (Euro), when it doesn't it's discarded (EU constitution).

That is entirely consistent with my response. The EU is not navigating towards that goal. But integration is well within the probable outcomes: because it often is aligned with our interests.

[Kalis]

Anything that does not align with the ideology of certain Central Europeans is considered "nationalist" nowadays. That word should be reserved for nationalists. It's not a substitute for "I don't agree with you".

So it is going down the same route as racist, xenophobe, misogynist, etc. and just turning into a generic insult that has no bearing on its actual meaning.

[Mihalik]

For the life of me I fail to understand this burning desire people have for the failure of the single fucking thing Europe got right politically in the past maybe 2000 years.

I am old enough to remember a Europe with borders. This strong "nations" thing that people really seem to want to return to, fucking sucked ass. It sucked economically, it sucked standard of living wise, it sucked in availability of services and technology, it sucked culturally (it was just fucking boring).

I'm old enough to remember the security challenges of the pre 2001 era. Yeah, Islamic terrorism was somewhat rarer, but I remember the IRA, I remember the slow and painful end of the Troubles, ETA, the 90's Italy where you had a mob bombing or street shooting every fucking day. I remember the car bombs in fucking Budapest as the Russian and Chinese mob were competing for the used car market (cars stolen in Germany and Western Europe and then smuggled into Eastern Europe). I remember the truckloads of people that human smugglers were shipping around.

I remember watching the Yugoslav wars on television, the weekly news of massacres and mass graves. The rapid and spectacular collapse of the Romanian economy. I remember the exodus of Eastern Europeans to Western Europe with shitty seasonal work visas, where they would work in the agricultural sector for a few months for pennies, without much in the way of labor protections or conditions of living.

This "better days" Europe people seem to think existed before the EU never was. Fucking standard of living in Greece today after everything is still higher than it was before the 90's.

Fucking cluesness and selective memories of people is exasperating.

[Kuntantee]

So it is going down the same route as racist, xenophobe, misogynist, etc. and just turning into a generic insult that has no bearing on its actual meaning.

Could be, yes.

[Slant]

Le Pen is arguably the most popular politician in France and Farage just achieved his aim of getting the UK to leave the EU. I literally can't think of any other one-policy politician who has been as successful as Farage.

You could have settled that off the battlefield and not caused the deaths of tens of millions. That would have been nice.

Considering I am referring to the most infamous issue of EU waste, you need to know that if you are going to claim the EU is not bloated and I will not help you out. So you find out, then you defend it and you are not doing a good job so far.

A nother poster even made a reference to it earlier.

You're mixing up "populist" with "politician". I'm beginning to doubt your competency at discussing these issues.

We did settle it off the battlefield. At the time we called it "the agreement on coal and steel industry" or something to that extent. Today we call it "The European Union". Have you not followed my arguments? I literally wrote that to you in this thread already.

I don't care, dude. It's you who's making the statement that EU bureaucracy is bloated. I don't agree and don't care much how much bloat it has, it's still smaller than most national bureaucracies, which is fine by me. So, since I am happy with the current status quo, it's your job to convince me that there is a problem. And you're doing a pretty shite job at convincing me of anything recently.

[Slant]

So it is going down the same route as racist, xenophobe, misogynist, etc. and just turning into a generic insult that has no bearing on its actual meaning.

Like Farage isn't a nationalist demanding the rest of the EU has to bow down to British demands? Unlike you lot, I actually think before I use these labels. I suggest you take them for what they are, not what you think they are. I'm growing rather impatient with you, Kalis. You used to put more effort into your posts. Big disappointment to see you turn down the road of cheap insults and vague allusions.

[ravenmoon]

Anything that does not align with the ideology of certain Central Europeans is considered "nationalist" nowadays. That word should be reserved for nationalists. It's not a substitute for "I don't agree with you".

nationalism once a holy grail is now demonized - i found that wording interesting but all too true. However when they phrase it like that it is obvious Globalist movement propaganda. the world can get on quite fine as individuals, we don't have to unite together in one state led by some superior personage to actually be peaceful , get on and go about our own business.

And trying to force people together will always cause a back lash and can just as easily if not moreso lead to the war you supposedly feel a one world government would solve. Like no union has ever broken up or split apart gruesomely too. yet here we are again, pipe dream number what now in human history?

[Slant]

nationalism once a holy grail is now demonized - i found that wording interesting but all too true. However when they phrase it like that it is obvious Globalist movement propaganda. the world can get on quite fine as individuals, we don't have to unite together in one state led by some superior personage to actually be peaceful , get on and go about our own business.

And trying to force people together will always cause a back lash and can just as easily if not moreso lead to the war you supposedly feel a one world government would solve. Like no union has ever broken up or split apart gruesomely too. yet here we are again, pipe dream number what now in human history?

What kind of hippie bullshit argument is this? In the past 3k years, everything humanity as a species did revolved around social groups of some sort. We can decidedly not exist as individuals, not even every anmial can fucking exist as individuals only. Christ, this discussion is pointless. It's at this time when Milo says I should respect your opinion or lose the ability to convince you... but this is the stage where I am beginning to argue why rain is wet.

[Deleted]

What is moving from Belgium to France?

The EU parliament. It's ridiculous. I blame the French.

[Mehrunes]

Anything that does not align with the view of certain Central Europeans is considered "nationalist" nowadays. That word should be reserved for nationalists only. It's not a substitute for "I don't agree with you".

Pricks aside, both Farage and Le Pen are very much nationalists. Calling them as such is no less accurate than calling them populists.

nationalism once a holy grail is now demonized - i found that wording interesting but all too true. However when they phrase it like that it is obvious Globalist movement propaganda. the world can get on quite fine as individuals, we don't have to unite together in one state led by some superior personage to actually be peaceful , get on and go about our own business.

Crusades were once a holy grail deal too (on more than one level). The world kinda grew out of that desire for the most parts. Things change. And no matter how US or any other country claims to be exceptional and god's gift to mankind, globalization is the course that's unlikely to be averted by now.

[Kuntantee]

Pricks aside, both Farage and Le Pen are very much nationalists. Calling them as such is no less accurate than calling them populists.

The sentence doesn't seem to be in some sort of context, but more like a general statement to me. I have been called "nationalist" (used as an insult by the way) many times by certain people, that's why I felt the need to respond to that.

[Mihalik]

The sentence doesn't seem to be in some sort of context, but more like a general statement to me. I have been called "nationalist" (used as an insult by the way), that's why I felt the need to respond to that.

Being a nationalist is an insult worthy trait. Speaks volumes about either ones ignorance or malice. No exceptions.

[Coconuter]

[QUOTE=cubby;44845675]Wow, to think that we'd be moving away from Globalization and unity and back into nationalism. Was hoping we'd unify the globe by 2200.

Your statement here is one of the biggest problems with democracy in general. We see micro and macro situations like this every year in the United States. How do you do what's right for the country when local representatives are voted in to do right for the localities.
[COLOR="#417394"][SIZE=1]

This is one of the best parts of democracy. It's where even the little people, or those who are different can obtain a voice. The culture and differences that different regions have help shape the world. This is our true checks and balances, our three branch system checks and balances only is supposed to support it.

I could be for free trade and an open market that allows for the exchange of goods on a global scale, but, globalization as a whole, no.

I understand the appeal of globalization, everyone getting along and holding hands and doing what is best for everyone all at the same time. It sounds great, sure. But what would it really entail? Saying that all things should just be the right decision only on a macro level can and would be manipulated to such a high degree. It's why totalitarianism has always been a government style that can in some ways sound good on paper, but, in reality, it's been the worst.

People have feelings, emotions, cultural backgrounds (including faith). There should be differences. Globalization and macro decisions would only take this away. Our differences are what strengthen ourselves and others to do better. Are there negative side effects? Absolutely, it's not perfect, which is fine, we as people are not perfect.

Your signature is a perfect example of why globalization would fail. It's assuming people of faith know very little and give nothing. While science gives everything. So what would be the right decision for you on a macro level? I'd assume one thing would be to talk away faith in religion. Faith has helped shape and motivate scientific advancement plenty of times in the past. And I don't mean it was some priest somewhere wanting to go to the moon. It spurred people to want to challenge it as well, prove things wrong, see more, like that the earth was round and revolved around the sun. People and thoughts don't have to be right to be helpful. Faith has brought plenty of good and bad to this world, arguably the same amount as science.

For the record, I would classify my religious belief as Christian. I studied nuclear and mechanical engineering and love scientific advancements and nuclear theory. The only church I've enjoyed going to we had Sunday School. The first several books we were asked to read were books written by atheists written to prove that God in Christianity or any other religion could be scientifically proven to false and frequently quoted from the Bible and Quran. These differences and willing to learn and listen to them, helped teach me the importance of having differences within people.

We need our differences. The vast majority of the world already is more than willing to work together despite our differences that make us individuals. The small percentage that wants to force change on others tend to be the those who will not want to accept others no matter what.

[Kuntantee]

Being a nationalist is an insult worthy trait. Speaks volumes about either ones ignorance or malice. No exceptions.

One of the most brilliant professor in AI in my faculty was a good old nationalist. Being a nationalist neither speaks about ignorance nor one's intentions. For the record, his 3 months of work is probably more meaningful to humanity than most people's entire life in this forum, so there is that.

[Noradin]

That's not really true either. Most of western Europe is paying more to the EU than they get back in funding from it.

Some things gained are non-monetary, so it is still be worth it.

[Mihalik]

One of the most brilliant professor in AI in my faculty was a good old nationalist. Being a nationalist neither speaks about ignorance nor one's intentions. For the record, his 3 months of work is probably more meaningful to humanity than most people's entire life in this forum, so there is that.

I'm sorry, but it does. If someone is not a nationalist out of ignorance then they simply are a shitty human being.

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That's not really true either. Most of western Europe is paying more to the EU than they get back in funding from it.

The benefit to EU membership is not only quantified in tax contributions, but in things like trade and security.

[Noradin]

Globalization is a result of the age of information and fast communications and travelling. Those aren't going away, the world wasn't simply prepared for bullet speed tech transformation.

The world has never been prepared for any such change in history, it is the one true constant: people will be unprepared.

[Kuntantee]

I'm sorry, but it does. If someone is not a nationalist out of ignorance then they simply are a shitty human being.

He was a kind person and liked a lot by his students in a highly multicultural university. At this point, you've completely stopped making sense. It is your bigotry, that you've displayed in last two posts, stems out of ignorance.

I'd agree that average nationalist is unbearable in every imaginable way, but it doesn't give you right to make generalizations.