subtlety pvp design criticism

[elfporn]

I have insisted that Sub WAS PvP only in the past. It was our spec before it was yours.

There's your elitism showing again.

The spec was never a "pvp only spec". The spec, early on, was the goto for pvp because of design, intentional or not. Sub had more tools and burst, but lacked sustained dps that was so desirable in the pve environment of the time. (Combat daggers, and in tbc mut/combat being the top pve specs). So, for a long time, sub was the best pvp spec, just like ass is the best(arguably) for pve righ now.

It was never "your spec" before it was "ours" We're all rogues, So lets talk about what could be done with what we have now, to make it better.

1. Remove the teleport from shadowstrike, increase range by 10yds. Reduce shadowstep cd to compensate.

- i will admit, i do like forcing casters to run while sticking to them and setting up burst (40% finality evisc from stealth followed by coldblood SS, and then death'ed SS). I can get in a good 4mil in 4 GCD's. Perhaps another option could be to bring back cloak and dagger as a pvp talent.

2. Re-introduce gouge, worst case as a pvp talent, best case, baseline.

Those are two QoL changes that could give sub rogues more control in pvp situations, and help in pve situations where the teleport is a disadvantage.

[shoegazing]

There's your elitism showing again.

The spec was never a "pvp only spec". The spec, early on, was the goto for pvp because of design, intentional or not. Sub had more tools and burst, but lacked sustained dps that was so desirable in the pve environment of the time. (Combat daggers, and in tbc mut/combat being the top pve specs). So, for a long time, sub was the best pvp spec, just like ass is the best(arguably) for pve righ now.

It was never "your spec" before it was "ours" We're all rogues, So lets talk about what could be done with what we have now, to make it better.

1. Remove the teleport from shadowstrike, increase range by 10yds. Reduce shadowstep cd to compensate.

- i will admit, i do like forcing casters to run while sticking to them and setting up burst (40% finality evisc from stealth followed by coldblood SS, and then death'ed SS). I can get in a good 4mil in 4 GCD's. Perhaps another option could be to bring back cloak and dagger as a pvp talent.

2. Re-introduce gouge, worst case as a pvp talent, best case, baseline.

Those are two QoL changes that could give sub rogues more control in pvp situations, and help in pve situations where the teleport is a disadvantage.

those changes would be a start.

however we also need changes to the PvP talents. we need the option of playing a build with 1x Shadow Dance but with more burst as opposed to 3x tickledances.

you may not realize this but shadowstrike damage is vastly nerfed in PvP templates because Blizzard in their infinite wisdom decided the added mobility made it too powerful to deal real damage.

the way the spec plays in PvP right now is literally a spam teleporting, spam stunning mage pet. it is only viable in high level play to the extent that it can stun things for a mage to land polymorphs / for a mage to burst into.

we need reduced mobility and we need a snare that can be used for kiting and restealthing instead of one that requires us to be tunneling our target. we need more diverse CC tools again, like we have always had, and less emphasis on simply spamming stuns every time they come off DRs. and we need the ability to deal actual burst damage in PvP again, which has always been a huge part of the identity of the spec.

[Deleted]

sap breaks on dmg not all abilities.

[elfporn]

I Definitely agree that our pvp talents are pretty lackluster. They could do all sorts of crazy shit with them, the perfect example is the DH one where they fly up in the air and nuke from on high, That cool as fuck, why can't everyone get something badass like that?

Pulling the teleport off SS is the first step to making our dmg frontloaded again.

[shoegazing]

I Definitely agree that our pvp talents are pretty lackluster. They could do all sorts of crazy shit with them, the perfect example is the DH one where they fly up in the air and nuke from on high, That cool as fuck, why can't everyone get something badass like that?

Pulling the teleport off SS is the first step to making our dmg frontloaded again.

I don't want to fly up in the air and do a bunch of ridiculous crap lol. I would make a DH if that's what I wanted! I just want to feel like I'm playing a sub rogue again. A sub rogue that might be squishier than other melees but makes up for it by bringing more control. A sub rogue that has bursty damage when opening from stealth and a reason to seek to get back into stealth later in the match instead of just chasing someone around doing the PvE rotation because it resets our Dance stacks faster that way lol.

I just want the option of playing a build that appeals to me and other people who play a subtlety rogue specifically because we love PvP. It's definitely possible, Blizzard just has to start giving a damn.

[shaunika123]

A sub rogue that might be squishier than other melees but makes up for it by bringing more control.

when has sub rogue ever been squishy?

we've been one of the tankier melees ever since TBC


our tradeoff compared to other melees has always been the almost nonexistant sustained damage, not squishyness

i agree with the rest tho

openers should matter again

[shoegazing]

when has sub rogue ever been squishy?

we've been one of the tankier melees ever since TBC


our tradeoff compared to other melees has always been the almost nonexistant sustained damage, not squishyness

i agree with the rest tho

openers should matter again

yes, but i simply mean our defenses are predicated on actively peeling enemy damage, and using our slipperiness to avoid it.

in recent expansions we have gained the ability to soak damage with feint/elusiveness, but we have lost preparation. with separate balancing between PvP and PvE, there is no reason that both sides of the game shouldn't feature the respectively appropriate style of defensive play.

[shoegazing]

Summary of Subtlety Rogue gameplay in Legion Arena:

"my mage teammate used Frozen Orb so I'm going to cheap this guy in it 3x"

throw in a few kicks, blind-->sap once every two minutes, and other than that it's shadowstrike shadowstrike eviscerate shadowstrike shadowstrike eviscerate shadowstrike shadowstrike eviscerate

pretty boring unless you are an extreme casual that just wants to smash a couple buttons without being asked to think too much

[Coldkil]

Closing. Bumping old threads just to promote "it was better X time ago" is not allowed.