Why is Antifa not banned yet??

[Ravenblade]

Antifa are worse than nazis.

Name one thing that Antifa did which was also worse than anything the Nazis did, please. These modern memes like "Hitler was bad but...look at what Antifa does!" and "Hitler was not that bad and not worse than Antifa anyway" don't really fly well. They are absurd.

The Neonazis of today have an excellent way of deflecting their own deeds by suggesting that their counterforce is somehow the force of evil that spawned from nowhere. Having seen and followed my share of excesses from both sides in the last three decades I daresay that throwing stones while sitting in a glasshouse isn't working. Both sides see violence as necessary means and not just as ultima ratio in order to make their point. The annual statistics regarding politically motivated crimes are proving that and then there's the myth that Neonazis are peaceful people. They may be around your corner because they haven't upgraded to militia and state-within-a-state status yet like they did in some other places. They are far from that here, in fact how about some neonazis beating up a Kirmes party because they can and getting enough lawyer funding to obstruct the process and get reduced sentences? Oh, and here are these "gentlemen" I am talking about. Notice: you may need Google translate.

As far as I remember, and due to living in that state I have always been in vicinity of both sides of the far sides of the spectrum and there is no greater hotbed of ideologies than it is here, they are both distinct in their preferred way of exercising violence. I have had known close colleagues and companions who would subscribe to either extreme ideologies, some of them turned to violence later. Some deeply regretted and felt ashamed and turned to normal life again later. To say: X is worse than Y is idiotic and frankly I am tired of hearing this. Fact is: the nature of Antifa has it that its structures are a lot more cell-like and much less organized, their hallmark of violence is vandalism and confronting neonazis as well as police and state forces, whom they actually deem in league with the neonazis. However there is also a vivid internal debate about violence which has created some significant rift between two groups, the political Antifa which tries to stick to peaceful means and the violent one also called Autonomous Groups who see their destination in some kind of "war" for anarchism. Neonazis however have far-reaching links even to the upper echelons of the state and police which is the reason why in a recent trial not only neonazis are on trial but the Verfassungsschutz, the domestic intelligence service, of Thuringia too because they were involved in it as well. The neonazis here have developed complex structures and a network of militias and paramilitary units and know how to play the state. They also don't hesitate to attack or threaten normal citizens if it serves their needs.

[Mormolyce]

ITT: Neo-Nazis are heroes for their tireless championing of free speech, meanwhile people who try to stop them are evil cowards and morons.

[Deleted]

I understood your point, but I elected to ignore it and instead point out that your definition of hate speech, on which your point is based, is shit.

Then its a meaningless word beyond 'bad-think'.
Which means he is saying free speech is good, except for bad-think, neatly missing the point of free speech.

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Hate speech is violent.

No its not, speech cannot be violent.

It is violent even if not physical.

Violence: behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

It is violent in the purest sense in that it is a violation

Those do not share the same root and do in fact not have the same meaning.

an attempt to normalize the mistreatment and/or erasure of the marginalized.

This can qualify as Violate, yes, but not Violence.

Silencing hate speech is not violent.

Not by definition, but sure you can silence someone without using violence.

It is self defense.

No, its not.
Again: the defence of one's person or interests, especially through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime.

Learn the difference before you bother opening your mouth again.

You should just learn something.

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ITT: Neo-Nazis are heroes for their tireless championing of free speech, meanwhile people who try to stop them are evil cowards and morons.

yes, because free speech is for everybody, including (especially) people who you disagree with, otherwise you don't actually believe in free speech.

[Vorkreist]

ITT: Neo-Nazis are heroes for their tireless championing of free speech, meanwhile people who try to stop them are evil cowards and morons.

Do you call your parents neo-nazis when they scold you ?

[Deleted]

Categorizing Antifa as Stalinist is pretty damn misleading.

Nope.

Lots of Eastern European Antifa viewed him and his ilk as traitors to a more noble cause.

Still they represent totalitarian communism, that they are unable to see that means Stalinism, is presumably due to the same reason they communists, because they are idiots.

Lots of Antifa in the Peninsula and Southern Europe had little to do with communism as we would term it, often just being vaguely pro worker in terms of ideology.

I believe the term is useful idiots?

US Antifa trends more towards liberal humanism than communism, though again of course there's overlap. For instance, spend some time around them and you'll meet more than one gay guy who beat the shit out of skin heads in the 80s.

Yeah see using political violence, is Fascist and Totalitarian - Again, They are Idiots.

[Danner]

They are blatent terrorists.. assaulting unarmed people and elderly threathening to kill right winged people

Not really a reply to the OP, but:

Banning an idea is a meaningless act. Just because you put a denied-by-the-state stamp on something doesn't mean it ceases to be. Nazism has been banned in germany since WW2, but that doesn't mean germany has no neo-nazis. The ban just pushed it underground. And when the people holding that idea has little to no respect for laws and order, a ban is doubly meaningless.

Antifa is just a different side of the same coin as the Neo-nazis. They are both perfectly willing to use violence to further their political agenda. It is still an organization promoting terror as a weapon to silence their enemies. There is a word for that.

The problem with people taking the law into their own hands is that there is no due process. Sooner or later, antifa is going to attack someone who certifiably did not "deserve" it. And as extremism is allowed to fester, moral inhibits will weaken. Worst case, these groups end up as another Rote Arme Fraction. Antifa isn't a new thing, by far. And it did not end well the last time it surged either.

And then the question is - why did anyone let it get to that point? Why is anyone, including people in this thread, openly supporting giving an anarchistic extremist group a carte blanche to attack other humans? Because it only is a matter of time. And when it happens, people will ask why they weren't stopped. And then the answer is: because you allowed them, giving them support, egging them on.

You know who you are. I hope you also take responsibility for it.

[Deleted]

What is going to happen on March 15th?

Because on the 16th something will begin, namely the negotiations between VVD, CDA, D66 and GL to run our country for the next four years.

On the 15th of March you'll probably be crying. And you want someone leading your country who is the most extreme sexist you can think of? Wanting more women in office just because they're women? 70% of people applying for these jobs are men, only 60% in the Tweede Kamer are men. Men already have a disadvantage, and he wants to make it even worse for them. Sexism can be a disadvantage for both sides, you know. Quite hard to understand for people like Jesse Klaver and you.

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Nice trolling there you should be ashamed on yourself Wait and see on 15 of march

Hail brother! Nederland weer van onszelf, niet een speelpop van de EU!

[Mormolyce]

Do you call your parents neo-nazis when they scold you ?

Um... lol.

That's a new level of ridiculous right there.

[tristannarutofan]

I think you should worry more about the fascist who got a hostile foreign government (ruled by a man who gave haven to a Man who used snipers to murder his own citizens) to interfere with an election and put him in power, and stop worrying about nazis getting punched.

there are millions of dead people , mostly jewish people, many children, who can tell you why punching nazis is an objectively good thing

anyways the modern Alt Right Neo nazi movement originated from Stormfront (nazi) users spreading their ideals on reddit and 4chan. OP is probably either an actual nazi or just a conservative putz whos been brainwashed by them.

Or they could just be a moderate who hasnt payed attention during any history class.

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Um... lol.

That's a new level of ridiculous right there.

I'd say "if they scold me for saying things like "Black people are human" or "gay people have rights" or "hitler was wrong" then i might call em a neo nazi, yes.

"National Socialism (Nazism) is a totalitarian system originally created in Germany immediately following World War I, and characterized by intense nationalism, dictatorial or draconian police state rule, mass appeal, brutal use of violence, disregard for the law, and a racial policy emphasizing the subjugation or extermination of people considered inferior, based heavily on a belief in social Darwinism, as advocated by people such as Heinrich von Treitschke and Houston Stewart Chamberlain.[1] This philosophy extrapolated Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory and said that persons, groups, and races are subject to the same laws of natural selection that Darwin proposed for animals"

the confusion(by ignorant moderats) i think is because people think Nazism is a "club" that you choose to join.

No its an ideal, If you have certain ideals that are National Socialist ideals then that makes you a Nazi. You dont even have to know what a nazi is to be one. Nazi is just a slur used to INSULT nazi. Its SHORT for National Socialist. Na.Si. Nazi.

Every nazi will say they arent a nazi. Just like many KKK member (a terrorist group who hasnt been destroyed by the FBI, because the West is a racist cesspool) doesnt think they are racist.

[Deleted]

ITT: Neo-Nazis are heroes for their tireless championing of free speech, meanwhile people who try to stop them are evil cowards and morons.

1. I'm not a neonazi. When you are right wing, you are simply not a neonazi. Hitler was pretty socialist in a lot of aspects. Hard to get after 80+ years I know.

2. Telling people they're evil cowards and morons, does not equal questioning free speech. THAT IS free speech. You can say whatever the fuck you want, as long as you don't use any violence with it. A small portion always resort to violence, but we've all seen where the danger and violence currently is coming from. People are still stuck with 1939-1945 in their head, but these times are long past. A large portion (particularly from the left) is not able to think critically anymore and only sees the danger of the right in the form of neo-nazism, which is simply not the case and is driving the debate even further from where it's supposed to go.

I'm not saying everyone supporting the left is crazy, they are either really extreme, are in favor of globalism and all the consequences that come with it, or simply didn't read up enough on it and because it sounds better from a basic point of view, will always support the left because it sounds more ''tolerant''.

The reason this fact is made obvious to me is that I very well understand the left's point of view, where they're coming from. Most of the left however, can only come as far to think we're simply racists. That fact alone should make it very clear which part is the educated one on this matter, whether you agree or not. Only very moderate leftists are still open for debate and seem to be sane and educated on the subject.

A large part of the right simply says this: ´Hey. Let's show it down a bit in the form of immigration etc., because it seems it's not working out very well if you are working with an open border policy without any rules. I want to keep my own culture, my identity, but in the same time I want to preserve those other cultures aswell by helping them, instead of bringing them to us and make the free world a little bit more like their shithole´. If you say that, you're apparently racist. But why are they running so hard to us if it's so nice and cozy there? Ah, probably because we always subjugated them ofcourse. All these masterminds the West has brought, had simply to do because we sucked more than the rest. So let´s finish it asap and make it one big blend of everything. Pretty boring imo. I want Africa to stay Africa with more wealth, same counts for every other region including the West. It´s not like you shouldn´t be able to travel, but an open border policy like we´ve seen for the past few years is far from the solution and only brings more crime, less safety and I think eventually to more war.

[Deleted]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post44922649

Someone needs to fight those people.

Lulz, yeah fights those ppl.

Or you know stabucks, Mcdonalds etc.

Or silence right-wing ppl for hhaving the "wrong" view.

[Ravenblade]

1. I'm not a neonazi. When you are right wing, you are simply not a neonazi. Hitler was pretty socialist in a lot of aspects. Hard to get after 80+ years I know.

Socialism wasn't a purely leftist thing pretty much until after WWII.

2. Telling people they're evil cowards and morons, does not equal questioning free speech. THAT IS free speech. You can say whatever the fuck you want, as long as you don't use any violence with it. A small portion always resort to violence, but we've all seen where the danger and violence currently is coming from. People are still stuck with 1939-1945 in their head, but these times are long past. A large portion (particularly from the left) is not able to think critically anymore and only sees the danger of the right in the form of neo-nazism, which is simply not the case and is driving the debate even further from where it's supposed to go.

Neonazis still derive the core of their ideologies and symbolism still from the same ideologies from the nationalsocialism though. However they have learned to restrain themselves a little in order to achieve their goals. Which allows far right sympathizers to befriend them and like an onion it adds layer after layer where it finally ends up in the middle of society. We even have far right think tanks who openly state that their final goal is removal of democracy and restoration of a status quo ante 1939 by use of controlled influence of non-affiliated parties and burning through one more radicalized form after another until society is ready to accept the seemingly undeniable.
A lot of their ideas shine through a resurgences of antisemitic memes, rhetorics that support of point-blank holocaust denial and other crank-driven rightwing conspiracies. People love to pick it up because it is fresh and new and seemingly inferring truth until they leave the ability to critically think behind them. I daresay the ability to think critically is not just lost on one side. It is really depressing when you try to talk to a countryman of yours and you seemingly cannot communicate with each other because his/her stubborn mindset has become alien to you where you outright represent the enemy and need to be fought instead of talked too.

A large part of the right simply says this: ´Hey. Let's show it down a bit in the form of immigration etc., because it seems it's not working out very well if you are working with an open border policy without any rules. I want to keep my own culture, my identity, but in the same time I want to preserve those other cultures aswell by helping them, instead of bringing them to us and make the free world a little bit more like their shithole´. If you say that, you're apparently racist. But why are they running so hard to us if it's so nice and cozy there? Ah, probably because we always subjugated them ofcourse. All these masterminds the West has brought, had simply to do because we sucked more than the rest. So let´s finish it asap and make it one big blend of everything. Pretty boring imo. I want Africa to stay Africa with more wealth, same counts for every other region including the West. It´s not like you shouldn´t be able to travel, but an open border policy like we´ve seen for the past few years is far from the solution and only brings more crime, less safety and I think eventually to more war.

The problem is that populists have all the scapegoats but no solutions. The EU has to deal with the refugee issue one way or another. There is that illusion that we can turn back the wheel and create a policy of total isolationism and segregationism as answer to the other extreme forms of multiculturalism. The answer is: Leitkultur and assimilation. Believe it or not European civilizations were never exempt or excluded from cultural migration, if we were we would not use Arabic letters for instance. The only difference will be that we now have a greater power than other cultures and we can continue to exert it but we cannot if we just keep to ourselves. Those African cultures? We surely can export some of our values, right? And who's a better messenger than one who's successfully integrated here? There is that fear that all continents of the world will seek out our homes and want to live here. Truth is: If their situation were better they'd rather be where they are now than come to us. I've seen a documentary about Kenya, at one point they asked a salesman who's living off scraps whether he would move away and he flat out denied it because he had family and was otherwise pretty okay with his situation, he wasn't the only one thinking like that, now think: their standards are pretty much way below of what we would accept as living standard. What would it take to still make someone turn towards the idea of coming here. Answer: It's usually not lust for terrorism, crime and laziness.

[Mormolyce]

I'm not saying everyone supporting the left is crazy, they are either really extreme, are in favor of globalism and all the consequences that come with it, or simply didn't read up enough on it and because it sounds better from a basic point of view, will always support the left because it sounds more ''tolerant''.

I'm just going to address this one: that's ass backwards. The left is extremely anti-globalisation, it's rather ironic to see the fringe right adopting it in fact.

[Zython]

From the inside, I'm sure it is. Us normies don't see it that way. See, when a normie, (and yes I'm using that word with at least 40% irony) like me sees people like this... https://i.redd.it/occcmzlrasyx.jpg

Our first instinct is not, "Oh, they're not Stalinists, so this is fine." Our first instinct is, "WTF Commies with guns!"

No. your first instinct is "But racism is good!"

They may not see themselves as dangerous radicals, but I do.

Right. Because 70 years of Red Scare indoctrination has convinced you that economic and social inequality are good things. Meanwhile, you're sitting there wondering why you're not making enough money without a single hint of irony. You've been played.

[Astalnar]

Opinion on what, Exactly? Be specific.

Question. At what point are people allowed to defend themselves against fascism? People talk about killing baby Hitler and such. But work through the steps going forward. At what point is violence warranted?

Opinion on anything. Defending yourself against an idea should never involve violence. Defending yourself against the adherents of a certain idea that want to inflict violence on you, is something else. Then, you can defend yourself by all means neccessary.

Ideas are just as dangerous as fists. An idea can topple an empire.

No. People following those ideas can topple an empire. Ideas themselves can do nothing.

Ideas can be much more dangerous that fists. How do you not know that yet?

No, it's the people following certain ideas that can be dangerous, never the idea itself. Ideas are to be discussed. You don't get to burn someone at stake just because they believe there is life on other planets. Or do you?

[Zython]

Yeah see using political violence, is Fascist and Totalitarian - Again, They are Idiots.

So you support abolishing the military and law enforcement?

[JohnBrown1917]

Hitler shot himself in his own bunker

Did 'dutch justice system' not ring a bell?

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Antifa are worse than nazis.

Oh I 'member when they killed 6 million nazis!!

[Deleted]

So you support abolishing the military and law enforcement?

Do you know what political violence is?

[Zython]

Do you know what political violence is?

Violence used to achieve political goals. Now answer the question.

[SupBrah]

Anyone who claims to be AntiFa should be tried for domestic terrorism and possibly even treason. Simple as that.