Top Player Bans

[Unforgivenn]

It would be the only deterrent...if you know all you'll get is a few days suspension it's still worth it. If you know you will lose the account if you're caught then it will probably put a lot of people off from doing things that break the ToS.

blizz already said this first ban was just a warning..

the next ban should take longer.. maybe 6 months ?

[chronia]

First warning is good, now maybe a wave or 2 in between and than make sure one of the waves either goes down Heroic ToS week or maybe the first day Mythic ToS opens and than with bans long enough to have a impact on the race.

maybe they should also take action towards identified buyers, like removing mounts, achies and gear. As that might even work better to stop this practise, if ppl have a risk hanging over their head of loosing the stuff they paid cash for they probably will think twice to fork over 1000+ dollar for a mount, some gear or a achie (for example last week i checked a boost site after seeing a ton of ingame spam to see what the fuss was about, and they asked 3500 Dollar for a Mythic NH clear including Gul'dan mount and gear from the bosses, not something you are likely willing to risk).

[Redblade]

blizz already said this first ban was just a warning..

the next ban should take longer.. maybe 6 months ?

But that's the problem in the first place...blatantly breaking the ToS should result in a permanent ban. If you know Blizz won't perm ban you for something that severe why care if you cheat a bit every now and then as you know you'd only get a slap on the wrist first time around. It breeds bad behavior.

That's not to say that questionable mechanics in raids, farming something that's probably broken and similar things should result in a perm ban. That's however ways away from using bots and selling for RM.

[theyanger]

But that's the problem in the first place...blatantly breaking the ToS should result in a permanent ban. If you know Blizz won't perm ban you for something that severe why care if you cheat a bit every now and then as you know you'd only get a slap on the wrist first time around. It breeds bad behavior.

That's not to say that questionable mechanics in raids, farming something that's probably broken and similar things should result in a perm ban. That's however ways away from using bots and selling for RM.

No, you're half on track and half way off. You're right it should result in more severe punishment, BUT BECAUSE BLIZZARD HAS KNOWINGLY LOOKED THE OTHER WAY FOR A DECADE, it would be asinine of them to suddenly do that. So, they are firing a warning shot. Period.

[Kennyloggins]

They're also firing a warning shot because they know the bans they sent out 1. don't cover nearly 1% of the money that's being moved and 2. aren't actually legit half the time. Since it's only 7 days they don't have to justify themselves with actual evidence and can send the message to placate the plebs while the elite continue to go untouched because Blizzard decides they can't do anything without bnet chat logs.

[Alvito]

Oh, if that's it, they'll be happy for the break, and doesn't effect progression in the slightest.



Edited wording to what I actually meant.

Progression is over for the groups that abused this the most. This is a hollow effort by Blizzard so far. People have been blatantly doing this for years and they haven't done anything about it, when they finally do it is all a smoke screen.

[Zyky]

But that's the problem in the first place...blatantly breaking the ToS should result in a permanent ban. If you know Blizz won't perm ban you for something that severe why care if you cheat a bit every now and then as you know you'd only get a slap on the wrist first time around. It breeds bad behavior.

That's not to say that questionable mechanics in raids, farming something that's probably broken and similar things should result in a perm ban. That's however ways away from using bots and selling for RM.

Situations like this have happened before. If you look back to last expansion's huge PvP ban wave. People who cheated again after that got a year ban. At some point, possibly after a year they'll do Perma-Bans. They just started dishing out IP bans for Overwatch and I'm sure that'll carry over if people actively create new accounts and do this shit on other accounts. Bottom line is in the ToS they reserve the right to ban you for any reason, at any time, so they don't even have to justify themselves when they do an IP ban or even listen to arguments like "but it was my brother!" or "it was my roommate!".

[elaina]

7 day ban is a total joke, but hopefully it's just a warning shot and they lay the hammer down harder next go around, preferably right before a raid tier is released.

Regardless of the financial incentive, Blizzard has every right to be annoyed by and bar people from exploiting their game for RL profits. And even if the buyer spends RL money on gold to use for the run, that gold can, at most, be reconverted into bnet balance and not actual money. It's about having control of your IP. If they condone this, then it suddenly becomes a legitimate / viable way to gear to spend RL money to other players for boosting, and I'm sure they think this is both unfair and not good for the game.

People make money off of the game in other ways: websites, youtubers, twitch streamers. All of these either promote and rally communities within the games though, and have little bearing in-game.

Unfortunately the situation is similar to money exploitation in college sports. Everyone knows it happens and it may even be practiced by a large majority, but the hammer and shame only comes down if an organization is actually caught.

I'm also curious how they prove any of this by the way, unless people are stupid enough to speak about monetary transactions in game.

[theyanger]

7 day ban is a total joke, but hopefully it's just a warning shot and they lay the hammer down harder next go around, preferably right before a raid tier is released.

Regardless of the financial incentive, Blizzard has every right to be annoyed by and bar people from exploiting their game for RL profits. And even if the buyer spends RL money on gold to use for the run, that gold can, at most, be reconverted into bnet balance and not actual money. It's about having control of your IP. If they condone this, then it suddenly becomes a legitimate / viable way to gear to spend RL money to other players for boosting, and I'm sure they think this is both unfair and not good for the game.

People make money off of the game in other ways: websites, youtubers, twitch streamers. All of these either promote and rally communities within the games though, and have little bearing in-game.

Unfortunately the situation is similar to money exploitation in college sports. Everyone knows it happens and it may even be practiced by a large majority, but the hammer and shame only comes down if an organization is actually caught.

I'm also curious how they prove any of this by the way, unless people are stupid enough to speak about monetary transactions in game.

People are generally FAIRLY open about that shit, probably never using the word 'money' but all the same it's blatant. I mean, back in MoP if you watched Rigg's stream you'd see them doing sale runs all the time and there were runs for gold and runs for 'cookies' (money).

[Xargoth6634]

I realize Blizz can do whatever they want here and doesn't *need* to justify it, but if this is anything like their normal banwaves it'll be haphazard as shit and will leave any innocent players affected with fuck all they can do about it.

[shyguybman]

It will be interesting to see what they do once ToS is out because we all know people are account sharing. Hell, Kuznam has been playing Mandrai's paladin since ToV I think.

[Deleted]

Blizzard have formally refused to confirm the reason for the ban in my guild.
They have refused to supply any evidence to support a ban.
They have refused to apologise and remove the ban.

Both myself and Tusn will function just fine without World of Warcraft in our lives, although it would hurt our guild tremendously if we were to stop playing.

Blizzards incompetence is not OK. It could be time to vote with our feet.

[silverstarzs]

I am curious what Bliz thinks of Azor providing 'hunter coaching' for RL money?

Is that against the terms or not?

[rda]

I am curious what Bliz thinks of Azor providing 'hunter coaching' for RL money?

Is that against the terms or not?

Against the terms.

You can't take real money for anything you do in the game. Not for addons, not for advise, not for help clearing raids or getting PVP ratings, not for items.

[Tharkkun]

They're also firing a warning shot because they know the bans they sent out 1. don't cover nearly 1% of the money that's being moved and 2. aren't actually legit half the time. Since it's only 7 days they don't have to justify themselves with actual evidence and can send the message to placate the plebs while the elite continue to go untouched because Blizzard decides they can't do anything without bnet chat logs.

That's not true.

Termination.

1. You are entitled to terminate this Agreement at any time by notifying Blizzard by email at support@blizzard.com.
2. Blizzard reserves the right to terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason, or for no reason, with or without notice to you. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most Account suspensions and terminations are the result of violations of this Agreement. In case of minor violations of these rules, Blizzard may provide you with a prior warning and/or suspend your use of the Account due to your non-compliance prior to terminating the Agreement or modifying or deleting an Account.

They don't need a single reason to ban your account. They could suddenly decide they hate Germans and ban them all. It would be a media frenzy of course.

But they can definitely ban/suspend accounts on pure suspicion of selling services for real money.

[Gorgodeus]

everyone will just start using VPNs if they don't already. Other than Bozzle I'm not sure many people give a shit about this tho tbh.

Read the TOS and EULA very carefully. They can ban you for using a VPN, if they so desire.

[Charge me Doctor]

Blizzard have formally refused to confirm the reason for the ban in my guild.
They have refused to supply any evidence to support a ban.
They have refused to apologise and remove the ban.

Both myself and Tusn will function just fine without World of Warcraft in our lives, although it would hurt our guild tremendously if we were to stop playing.

Blizzards incompetence is not OK. It could be time to vote with our feet.

You should read eula closely, they are not obliged to apologise or supply any evidence to you, they can just ban you for whatever.

[silverstarzs]

Against the terms.

You can't take real money for anything you do in the game. Not for addons, not for advise, not for help clearing raids or getting PVP ratings, not for items.

The question is whether (or what part of) this is actually considered 'in game'.

Doing a detailed log analysis, off-line, for another player (after an encounter) - I would not think that 'an in game service' - do you?

You say 'can't take real money for anything you do in the game. . . . . not for advise'. Do you really mean you think a wow advice video (showing in game video/stream) with a patron button is against the terms (that would in fact be taking money for advice)?

How does Zygor skate by? Should everyone using zygor be banned? They have been taking real money for a (very helpful) add-on for years. It is no secret - Bliz surely knows - it's right there in your add-on folder.

Where is the line with say 'sponsorship'? Is Method taking 'sponsorship' from several flush individuals, who also 'just happen' to play (not in progression) with them, acceptable (note it is a standard part of most sponsorship deals across spots that they are allowed or encouraged to hang with the team)?

The bigger question I am curious about is whether Bliz in fact now does not want anyone (except them) to make real money from any association with this game, or whether their are any 'acceptable' avenues to making real money at all?

You should read eula closely, they are not obliged to apologise or supply any evidence to you, they can just ban you for whatever.

Agreed, they 'don't have to' . . . . but they probably should offer an explicit/specific explanation for why they ban you and offer a real avenue for appeal (including 'facts found'). Otherwise it is a very poor exercise of moral authority - not a best practice at all - just 'banana republic justice'.

There was some 'excuse' for them not providing evidence to the bot makers (because that would help the bots get more invisible) but no excuse here.

[Charge me Doctor]

There was some 'excuse' for them not providing evidence to the bot makers (because that would help the bots get more invisible) but no excuse here.

So, you understand why they don't give you detailed explanation then, you are just in denial. They won't spread information about their algorythms, especially to people who got banned since they have more incentive to spread it.

[silverstarzs]

So, you understand why they don't give you detailed explanation then, you are just in denial. They won't spread information about their algorythms, especially to people who got banned since they have more incentive to spread it.

That is not relevant to this RL money case. There are a very small number of 'sources' of evidence here (unlike in bot detection where there are many many quite different potential ways to detect them). There is no mystical algorithm here - player reports, advertising and chat logs are pretty much it for RL money.

Look at this another way. We know they did not sanction even a small fraction of those involved in this activity. We also know there were false positives (I know that for 100% sure certain). Given that sanctioning everyone involved was obviously not a priority, they should make it so that the false positives can get cleared even if that means letting a few offenders off the hook. That would just be good game/business policy.

An open question here is whether they are sanctioning players not because Bliz has specific evidence that they themselves have taken RL money, but because they played with other players who may have done so. That is my guess. I think Bliz should explain that. Because if it is true it is rather an extension of how the terms are interpreted. It means I am now being held responsible for other players actions. And yes, they can certainly do that - but it sets a basically impossible standard for players - how do we know if someone else on our team is taking money or using a bot?

Finally, on this topic, 'secret unreviewable evidence' is widely agreed to be simply bad for justice. There are exceptional cases where it is considered the 'less of two evils' - national security issues is one for example. But this particular case does not have any (at all) of the characteristics favoring such an approach.

Honestly I am much less interested in this question, that the other I posed above "whether Bliz in fact now does not want anyone (except them) to make real money from any association with this game, or whether their are any 'acceptable' avenues to making real money at all?" and if there are such acceptable avenues where the bright line is.