Scaling Scaling Scaling. Enough already!

[Lazy Gecko]

I'm in favor of scaling as long as it serves the purpose of facilitating interaction with players across different levels. That's the entire point of a MMO after all. If you think it harms the sense of progression, then that is solved by implementing other means of progression that aren't just tied to raising your character level.

I think the way ESO did this with One Tamriel has been brilliant and really succeeded with breathing life across the world. No matter what zone you're in, there's always going to be a bunch of players around doing stuff. I've almost always thought that the way MMOs are designed with "stepping stone" zones just for leveling has been a fundamental design flaw. Over time, the active playerbase will congregate around the max level endgame content leaving all the previous content a barren wasteland (and as new expansions are released, the previous endgame content likewise gets relegated to the scrap heap), and this is precisely what ESO has avoided.

I would love to see something like that in WoW as well.

[Marston]

It's easy - just remove levels completely. If everything is scaled, why have them? Just make a characters with different abilities.

Sounds cool? Then go play Overwatch and fuck off of WoW, please. I want pulverize level 1 wild boars, not have an epic fight with them every time.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't get it, you "want to see a whole story", but don't want to see unless you're also rewarded?

It doesn't concern me personally as much on my first and maybe second playthrough, but it's especially bad in low level zones. Heck, I most of the time don't even use heirlooms because you level way to fast without them. If you only do a single dungeon you are already 1-2 levels above the intended leveling range. If content would actually scale, that wouldn't be as much of a problem.

[NelsonHorne]

It would be pretty nice to see the old regions like kalimdor and eastern kingdoms to be scaled down. i miss leveling and exploring in these zones because nowadays you just rush through them. beginning to talk about legion i do not know where to start - tf, wf, m+, the silly professions - i don't know man.

[Deleted]

I LOVED Challenge Modes, since it scaled down gear, you were ready for them quite fast and basically only skill was rewarded.

Except they didn't. Gears with socket was favorable, items with on use effect, blademaster trinket? Pandaria sockets? Invis pots mandatory, you name it

[deniter]

Scaling of content doesn't do it magically any more meaningful than before, it only makes it last longer.

I like games that set up challenges for me to beat. If a game lowers all the hurdles and breaks all the walls so that i'm always ready to go whenever i go there's no point even to play. I could pretty much just watch a movie.

[MiiiMiii]

If you do not like the direction Blizzard is going you have 2 choices.
1) Unsubscribe to prove a point
2) Play the god damn game Regardless and stop complaining (I would almost bet this is the choice most of the complainers are taking)

Here is a quote from ghostcrawler, previously working high up the ranks on WoW:

Developers do care if you stop playing their game and they want to know why. However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” (I’m basing that on having seen a lot of data - it’s not super open to debate.)

Dropping a game because of a specific design change (despite what you might read on forums / Reddit) is actually pretty rare. I know it happens, but if you’re stack ranking the reasons why people quit, those specific responses end up being so far down the list that it is hard for a development team to take actionable feedback. It’s really rare you see “Wow, that change we made cost us 10,000 players. Let’s revert it!” So overall, I would not advocate boycotting a game as a way to make a statement, especially if deep down you still love the game. You’re just not likely to drive change as a result.

(As an aside, the best way to drive change is still to try and clearly articulate your concerns in some public forum and hope that the developers take it seriously. I have talked to plenty of players to know how frustrating that answer might be, because at the end of the day, there just isn’t some kind of magic key that you can use to 100% guarantee that you will unlock that lock. Nevertheless, it’s still the best hope you have.)

Unsubscribing to prove a point does not work. Leaving feedback on what sucks does.

Why does so many people say stuff like "stop complaining or quit"? I honestly do not understand how the logic of these people works.

[Pann]

Here is a quote from ghostcrawler, previously working high up the ranks on WoW:

Developers do care if you stop playing their game and they want to know why. However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” (I’m basing that on having seen a lot of data - it’s not super open to debate.)

Dropping a game because of a specific design change (despite what you might read on forums / Reddit) is actually pretty rare. I know it happens, but if you’re stack ranking the reasons why people quit, those specific responses end up being so far down the list that it is hard for a development team to take actionable feedback. It’s really rare you see “Wow, that change we made cost us 10,000 players. Let’s revert it!” So overall, I would not advocate boycotting a game as a way to make a statement, especially if deep down you still love the game. You’re just not likely to drive change as a result.

(As an aside, the best way to drive change is still to try and clearly articulate your concerns in some public forum and hope that the developers take it seriously. I have talked to plenty of players to know how frustrating that answer might be, because at the end of the day, there just isn’t some kind of magic key that you can use to 100% guarantee that you will unlock that lock. Nevertheless, it’s still the best hope you have.)

Unsubscribing to prove a point does not work. Leaving feedback on what sucks does.

Why does so many people say stuff like "stop complaining or quit"? I honestly do not understand how the logic of these people works.

It is almost as if Ghostcrawler has wiped the whole Heroics are Hard debacle, where Blizzard were forced to u-turn this stance due to falling sub numbers, from his mind.

[MiiiMiii]

It is almost as if Ghostcrawler has wiped the whole Heroics are Hard debacle, where Blizzard were forced to u-turn this stance due to falling sub numbers, from his mind.

You have insider information?

Because the way I see it that whole situation was really stupid. I imagine the meetings around launch going something like this: "Players are complaining heroics are too hard. Only you and a few others wanted WoW to be fun again Ghostcrawler. Most of us in this meeting like this casual WotLK heroic style, where we can go in with no gear and pull packs without any CC. Now we have an excuse to force the difficulty down again, only giving the community a few weeks to adjust their playstyle.". The sub numbers dropped no quicker that expansion than the later ones. I think the nerfing of them, that quick, was a huge mistake.

[Pann]

You have insider information?

Because the way I see it that whole situation was really stupid. I imagine the meetings around launch going something like this: "Players are complaining heroics are too hard. Only you and a few others wanted WoW to be fun again Ghostcrawler. Most of us in this meeting like this casual WotLK heroic style, where we can go in with no gear and pull packs without any CC. Now we have an excuse to force the difficulty down again, only giving the community a few weeks to adjust their playstyle.". The sub numbers dropped no quicker that expansion than the later ones. I think the nerfing of them, that quick, was a huge mistake.

Why would I need insider information? Ghostcrawler told us Git Gud, the next earnings call showed massive subscriber losses, Blizzard nerfed the existing dungeons and made easier ones. I don't see why you'd need to be privy to any insider information to work out what had happened, especially when the likes of Morhaime have commented that making the game more hardcore was mistake.

[MiiiMiii]

Why would I need insider information? Ghostcrawler told us Git Gud, the next earnings call showed massive subscriber losses, Blizzard nerfed the existing dungeons and made easier ones. I don't see why you'd need to be privy to any insider information to work out what had happened, especially when the likes of Morhaime have commented that making the game more hardcore was mistake.

Sure there was subscriber losses. But it had nothing to do with heroics being hard. Where do you get this info from?

I would like to see this quote from "the likees of Morhaime" about making the game more hardcore being a mistake. I don't believe you.

[Sansnom]

In every single expansion, we have slowely moved from World of Warcraft to World of Scalecraft. A game where all content is scaled.

You did notice scaling was in Vanilla too from the start? Copper Ore, Tin Ore, Iron Ore etc. They are just scaled version of the same thing.

Questing. Level 10 zone. Go kill 10 level 10 mobs and collect their teeth. Level 20 zone. Go kill 20 level 20 mobs and collect their paws. Level 30 zone. Got kill 10 level 30 mobs and collect their eye balls. Etc.

I hate every single thing scaling has brought to this game.

I am surprised you last this long in the game. Assuming you played from Vanilla to now.

[FelPlague]

In every single expansion, we have slowely moved from World of Warcraft to World of Scalecraft. A game where all content is scaled.

In TBC we got "normal and heroic dungeons". In WotLK we got normal and heroic raids (starting from Ulduar). Cata, 10 man and 25 man choice. Cata, normal vs heroic mode. Cata, LFR. "Flex raiding". "Timewalking dungeons". Now we have even scaleable leveling zones, PvP gear scaling and "unlimited scaling" in dungeons. Gear is also being scaled starting with Heirloom gear and now this whole concept of titanforged and warforged gear. Hell, even spells used to not be scaled before, you had ranks. You are a miner on lvl 1? Don't worry, you can mine the Legion ores, we just scale down how much you get from mining it. Want to kill a mob? We scale the HP and dmg of the mob based on how many attacks it.

Even I am starting to have issues thinking of more things that can be scaled, but I am sure Blizz will come up with something. How about Raiding+? Or maybe scale every single leveling zone all the way back to level 1? Let's not give Blizzard any ideas...

Scaling is LAZY. It is trying to feed us the same content multiple times, with slight changes to HP and DMG, then call it new content. Throw the concept of RPG out the door, we need more scaling! Scaling is, in my opinion the worst mistake this game has done ever. It sucks the life out of this game. It just gets worse and worse, without any indication that it will stop.

I hate every single thing scaling has brought to this game.

Uhh 10 and 25 man choice was added in wotlk not cata... Also heroic was not added in uldluar
So nice try lying man

Heirlooms have always scaled. Two else would they work? Would you want them to be as strong as level80 gear at level1?

Also wtf is this rent even about. You proved you joined in data by proving you didn't play in wotlk
And complaining about scaling of all thing? Wtf

Also the game has always had scaling. Even in vanilla. Do you not understand the exp from a quest "scaled" to compensate for your level. Higher you are compared to it. Less you get. And how if you were 60 the exp was converted into gold "scaling" to your level
Also again you have brought up nothing bad about scaling. Just listed a few things in the game that scale and say you hate them... Without any reason why..

[MiiiMiii]

Uhh 10 and 25 man choice was added in wotlk not cata... Also heroic was not added in uldluar
So nice try lying man

Heirlooms have always scaled. Two else would they work? Would you want them to be as strong as level80 gear at level1?

Also wtf is this rent even about. You proved you joined in data by proving you didn't play in wotlk
And complaining about scaling of all thing? Wtf

10 and 25 man choice did start in WotLK yes. I am just getting all the information off the top of my head I am very sorry my timeframe for this scaling was off, please forgive me. I will google every timeframe from next time, it really matters a lot if it was added in WotLK or Cata.

And yes heroic was added in Ulduar. Remember the big red button behind Mimiron saying "DO NOT PRESS!" for instance? I guess you don't. Click that and you get "heroic mode" of mimiron. Yogg-saron had the so called Yogg+2 etc. mechanic making it easier, there Yogg 0 was "heroic mode".

Of course heirlooms have always scaled. The whole concept of heirlooms should be removed...

I am glad you ask what this "rent" is about because you clearly don't get it.

[Pann]

Sure there was subscriber losses. But it had nothing to do with heroics being hard. Where do you get this info from?

I would like to see this quote from "the likees of Morhaime" about making the game more hardcore being a mistake. I don't believe you.

Of course it didn't, which is why they continued to make hard heroics.. oh, no, wait...

"Well I think that with Cataclysm, we did make the endgame a little bit too difficult, and so in some of the recent patching we've been easing up on the difficulty."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ewed-interview

Tom Chilton said similar;

“It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hard core, as it had been in the past.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/ar...line.html?_r=0

[FelPlague]

10 and 25 man choice did start in WotLK yes. I am just getting all the information off the top of my head I am very sorry my timeframe for this scaling was off, please forgive me. I will google every timeframe from next time, it really matters a lot if it was added in WotLK or Cata.

And yes heroic was added in Ulduar. Remember the big red button behind Mimiron saying "DO NOT PRESS!" for instance? I guess you don't. Click that and you get "heroic mode" of mimiron. Yogg-saron had the so called Yogg+2 etc. mechanic making it easier, there Yogg 0 was "heroic mode".

Of course heirlooms have always scaled. The whole concept of heirlooms should be removed...

I am glad you ask what this "rent" is about because you clearly don't get it.

1. If you actually played back then you would have known off your head. Not think"oh 10/25 was added in cata" anyone who played in wrath remembers that
2. That was called harmode. Not heroic. And it didn't do any scaling. It just added nre mechanics. And made bosses hit harder or have abit more health (I guess you could call it scaling. But that still means you make no sense)
3.no heirlooms should not be removed because at level110. Us people who have already leveled a character or two need something to speed up the process. Legion took 14 hours on average without rested. Do we really need to spend 154 hours to level up our other 11 toons just to have some alts that can do lfr? Fuck that. I've already done it. I don't wanna spend another 154 hours doing it again and again.

Also fucking phone auto correct

- - - Updated - - -

So your argument is simply "I hate scaling. Vanilla was the best. It had no scaling. Every expansion after was shit bullshit shitty shit" so just quit. You are a complete tool. If you have hated stuff being added since fucking 2006 and you are still here. I know people who were in abusive relationships "she loves me. Just she can get abit angry when she's drunk" who even they wouldn't take 11 years to go " you know what. I know I've hated every single day of this for 11 years. But I am finally giving up" just quit. You hate the game. you have hated it for 11 years. Quit. And don't bother the rest of us

[MiiiMiii]

"Well I think that with Cataclysm, we did make the endgame a little bit too difficult, and so in some of the recent patching we've been easing up on the difficulty."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ewed-interview

Tom Chilton said similar;

“It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hard core, as it had been in the past.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/ar...line.html?_r=0

I mean "in a phone" is weak evidense and the Cataclysm thing might not even be about heroics, but I guess it is.

I am hate that this influencal people have this attitude, but I am not surprised either, looking at the direction the game has taken the past years.

They have just kept making the game more and more casual, alienating their loyal audience and then, when they for a split desition try to bring back the "hardcore audience" they give up immediatly and rather embrace their "casual audience". How long was the heroics in Cata hard? Was it 2 weeks? Ridicolus. Then other desitions they stick to and it works out, like no flying mount (I agree with no flying mount btw.), why? What makes them so weak in some desitions and so strong in others? ...

[deniter]

Of course it didn't, which is why they continued to make hard heroics.. oh, no, wait...

"Well I think that with Cataclysm, we did make the endgame a little bit too difficult, and so in some of the recent patching we've been easing up on the difficulty."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ewed-interview

Tom Chilton said similar;

“It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hard core, as it had been in the past.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/ar...line.html?_r=0

And that's why they are now breaking records in subscription numbers.. oh wait, they're not.

Most WoW players didn't see the end game in vanilla or TBC, yet the sub numbers kept raising. In Wotlk they expected to see more of the same, but they were disappointed with easy heroics and way too easy normal dungeons with RDF, thus the sub numbers plateaued. Just before Cata Blizz promised to offer more difficult dungeons that required CC and functional group compositions. Again, people bought it only to see the most of the game was destroyed, which made them quit.

Tom Chilton worked for Blizzard and had to say what their marketing department told him to say. They honestly believed there are endless mob of morons and individuals with lesser intellectual capabilities who would sub in droves once the game is made easy af. Obviously, we all know this is not true, but it's now too late for Blizz to back up without the risk of losing their face as a game developer.

[Pann]

I mean "in a phone" is weak evidense and the Cataclysm thing might not even be about heroics, but I guess it is.

I am hate that this influencal people have this attitude, but I am not surprised either, looking at the direction the game has taken the past years.

They have just kept making the game more and more casual, alienating their loyal audience and then, when they for a split desition try to bring back the "hardcore audience" they give up immediatly and rather embrace their "casual audience". How long was the heroics in Cata hard? Was it 2 weeks? Ridicolus. Then other desitions they stick to and it works out, like no flying mount (I agree with no flying mount btw.), why? What makes them so weak in some desitions and so strong in others? ...

What? Blizzard's actions and words clearly show that they think making Cata more hardcore was a mistake.

- - - Updated - - -

And that's why they are now breaking records in subscription numbers.. oh wait, they're not.

Most WoW players didn't see the end game in vanilla or TBC, yet the sub numbers kept raising. In Wotlk they expected to see more of the same, but they were disappointed with easy heroics and way too easy normal dungeons with RDF, thus the sub numbers plateaued. Just before Cata Blizz promised to offer more difficult dungeons that required CC and functional group compositions. Again, people bought it only to see the most of the game was destroyed, which made them quit.

Tom Chilton worked for Blizzard and had to say what their marketing department told him to say. They honestly believed there are endless mob of morons and individuals with lesser intellectual capabilities who would sub in droves once the game is made easy af. Obviously, we all know this is not true, but it's now too late for Blizz to back up without the risk of losing their face as a game developer.

Riiight??? And???

Do you seriously believe that people just hung around paying a sub fee because other people were seeing the end game? Or do you possibly think the growing sub numbers were a result of an untapped market and more people joining the game than leaving?

Yes, of course what Chilton said does not agree with your theory so obviously he didn't really mean it.

[primalmatter]

What? Blizzard's actions and words clearly show that they think making Cata more hardcore was a mistake.

- - - Updated - - -



Riiight??? And???

Do you seriously believe that people just hung around paying a sub fee because other people were seeing the end game? Or do you possibly think the growing sub numbers were a result of an untapped market and more people joining the game than leaving?

Yes, of course what Chilton said does not agree with your theory so obviously he didn't really mean it.

The game has gotten more hardcore though... the time it takes to get ready for end game raiding is ridiculous compared to what it was in tbc with the amount of grinding added.

This faux progression system is designed to cater to the hardcore crowd of people who log a lot of hours but either don't get better or refuse to do group content. The difference between tbc and now is the amount of repeative mindless grinds added from point A to point B.

[Deleted]

After leveling through legion zones with 4 toons I would prefer any other zone scaled up at this point... Stats are pure gameplay elements anyway and represent nothing about the "real" world (of Warcraft). Vanilla Ragnaros had 529,000HP... a random turtle from the Broken Isles has 1,558,901HP. And it most definitely hits harder as well. One turtle could probably take on 5 Ragnaros at once without problems... So, if stats are entirely gameplayrelated and lorewise arbitrary I see no reason not to have them scale when gameplay demands it.