RNG is bad mmkay

[zinfandel]

I can't quite get my head around why all rng is considered bad in the community. Sure, there has been bad rng in Hearthstone, like when a piloted shredder dropped doomsayer and there was/ is no mechanism to prevent your carefully constructed board state being wiped.

But now loads of posters are getting all wound up about the new adapt mechanism and how 'it's just rng', but seriously, without some mechanisms that allow you to shape you deck during play hearthstone just become rock paper this deck beats that deck.

if folk really want a predictable rule set with no chance of variation they need to play chess/ checkers/ tic tac toe.

[Nezrael]

I think it's mostly still bad memories from GvG.
It brought an overdose of "yolo, let's see what happens" kind of rng effects to the game and ever since, there is a strong mindset of random = bad.

Still, I'm a bit suprised by hate against adapt, since it's just a variant of discover for creature-abilities and it appeared like discover wasn't recieved too badly.
On the other hand, for each and every announcement, some people will complain and call it trash before anyone had a chance to see it in action, so whatever...

[Fenzha]

RNG fun is why i play. I hate what the game has become due to the serious nature of nothing but the stupidly powerful decks all the way up to rank 20.

I still run Yogg in my mage deck because it can be hilarious.

[Pantalaimon]

You're going to see a lot of people complaining about rng in Hearthstone. Hell, you even see plenty of people pointing to the mulligan system, and how it is random, and using that as evidence that the game is bad & built around bad rng (ignoring the fact that the mulligan system is actually an improvement on physical card games randomly shuffled/drawn opening hand system that often doesn't let you throw back cards after the first initial hand draw).

People just want to complain about anything and demand that anything that doesn't let them have 110% of the control over their games as being 'bad rng'.

Though to address the topic about the adapt mechanic, I am somewhat worried about the spell that gives a minion "Can't be targeted by spells or hero powers." I just see that type of randomness being combined with something like auctioneer or a powerful legendary to create a stupidly broken combo all due to rng-based adapt mechanics.

[FobManX]

Its a card game, some levels of RNG are expected and accepted. A little bit of RNG is fine, but RNG itself shouldn't outright decide games.

[Racthoh]

the early game rng is what ruins a lot of games.

[Deztru]

the early game rng is what ruins a lot of games.

Pretty much

Having a crappy hand or enemy having a good hand can single handedly declare the game, it's just not fun.

[Blueobelisk]

I think I complained about the RNG of Adapt first.

Complain is a strong word though. It's not game breaking, it's just bad design. Kazakus is game breaking, depending on the potions you get offered, you can either win the game or lose. Board clear and armor against aggro or summon minions + value against control, and it's GG. That doesn't take skill to win, that takes luck.

Adapt isn't as bad as Kazakus, but to a lesser extreme it looks like it's going to be "wow I probably could have won the game if I got offered the right Adapt choice, or if my opponent didn't get the right adapt choice. I guess his 3/10* luck is better than mine and that's what throws the game off balance."

*3/10 obviously isn't the exact probability. It's just for the sake of the argument.

[Pantalaimon]

Pretty much

Having a crappy hand or enemy having a good hand can single handedly declare the game, it's just not fun.

The thing is though is that is the concept of a random opening hand working as intended. Not trying to debate for the sake of it, but in all honesty that is a core component of how card games work, sometimes you get good hands & other times your hands aren't good. This is why I bring up that players complain about this rng more than any other rng in the game, but I find the complaint somewhat confusing since it should be expected that if you are playing a card game you are rolling dice or flipping a coin to decide if you get a useful hand or a shitty one. It may not be fun at times, but that is a problem with the card game genre as a whole, not just something isolated to Hearthstone based rng.

[Blueobelisk]

Pretty much

Having a crappy hand or enemy having a good hand can single handedly declare the game, it's just not fun.

Yeah dude holy shit. When i play blackjack and I dont get 21 from the initial two cards I just think it's unfair and not fun to play.

/s

[Racthoh]

i'm all for short games but if the winner is decided before i can play 10% of the cards in my deck then there's an issue. really it's not so much the opening hands but more the juggles / barnes / totems / implosions / lightning storms that roll high in turns 1-3 that can really make it impossible to come back from. and don't get me started on the godly 1 drops that make it so not even coin doomsayer is a safe play anymore.

we can see that blizzard is at least trying to steer away from that garbage but when ungoro drops and we see the new 2 drop adapt cards then you'll know it'll be another 8 weeks of pre-nerf hell for ladder climbing.

[HisDudeness]

Top decking or not having a early game hand on curve I can deal with. The RNG we speak of is getting certain potions from kabals. The pick three cards from 3 different class cards. Discover a 1/1 deathrattle card and it turns out to be Tirion. Etc etc. You guys aren't talking about RNG. You are discussing Blizzards terrible balancing team. Combine the RNG with the terrible balance and this is why this game is so easily picked up. Its purposely made like this. Adapt is going to be RNG o rama.

These are the same idiots who saw Un'goro was leaking so made some stupid 8 minute commercial and unveiled 3 whole cards. We don't exactly have the cream of the crop running this game.

[FobManX]

The opening hand problem isn't an RNG problem, its a meta game problem. Every deck nowadays is aggro decks that curve out incredibly well turns 1-2-3 and if you can't match that, you lose.

A little bit of RNG is fine and acceptable. An example of good RNG would be a card like Raven Idol. 1 mana and you can get a random minion or random class spell. Its not overly broken and you get some choice, and it doesn't completely alter the course of a game. Etheral Conjurer and Cabalist Tomes are also fine examples of RNG. You can get some real good cards but there is a luck component at a pretty hefty mana cost.

To me bad RNG would be like Kazakkus. Certain combinations are absolutely devastating and game winning, others are completely worthless, and often what you get from Kazakkus(or what your opponent gets)determine the outcome of games.

[Blueobelisk]

The RNG we speak of is getting certain potions from kabals. The pick three cards from 3 different class cards. Discover a 1/1 deathrattle card and it turns out to be Tirion. Etc etc.

Kabal Courier isn't bad RNG, it's bad design. You choose from 3 class cards, and class cards are more powerful than random trash neutrals.

Idk what the other card you're talking about is but Discover a Deathrattle is balanced since you could get Tirion or Sylvannas, or you could get trash neutrals.

Cards like that are all about the card pool you get to choose from, not about what you get offered. That's why shit like Netherspite History (all dragons are good) and Draknoid Operative (premium stats, Dragon, no player puts a shitty card in his deck and you get to choose from 3) are just ridiculously unbalanced.

[Belloc]

The only RNG in Hearthstone that I really hate is the randomness of the initial draws. When I draw three 5+ cost cards and then mulligan them all for another three 5+ cost cards, that's basically the game's way of telling me I should just concede, because I'm almost certainly not going to win. It pisses me off every single fucking time.

[Deleted]

RNG is fine, it's a card game.

Brainless early aggro rush decks are bad mmkay.

[Blueobelisk]

Actually I should say Kabal Courier isn't a bad card. I think it's fine by itself. Getting Kazakus from it though is really over the top since Kazakus is indeed game breaking. But that's sort of a "problems compounding" thing.

- - - Updated - - -

The only RNG in Hearthstone that I really hate is the randomness of the initial draws. When I draw three 5+ cost cards and then mulligan them all for another three 5+ cost cards, that's basically the game's way of telling me I should just concede, because I'm almost certainly not going to win. It pisses me off every single fucking time.

That's literally the only thing in this game you have control over. If you really want to curve out, then you build your deck and mulligan around mana cost probabilities.

[Kralljin]

Kabal Courier isn't bad RNG, it's bad design. You choose from 3 class cards, and class cards are more powerful than random trash neutrals.

I think the issue with Kabal is simply that the enemy can literally discover any card (type).

There is some strategy involved in guessing which card the enemy picked, but it needs at least a smaller card pool for it to work.

I think a card like Netherspite Historian is fine in any non priest deck (Thanks, Drakonid Operative) because while Dragons aren't bad, you can usually guess that it's a big dragon, since most dragons are big cards, that gives you some room to play around it.

However when someone plays Kabal Courier, they might have anything from a board clear, removal to freaking Lord Jaraxxus, the variance between Card Value and card type is way too big.

Some Discover effects simply have a too broad card pool to be "good" by design, they're a lottery that can win you certain games if you discover a certain card, a bit like Piloted Shredder, except you get 3 options to choose from.

Discover Cards should simply be more specific in terms of card type or smaller in card pool, I Know a Guy is a fine Discover card in my view, because based on the matchup / situation it's possible to tell what kind of taunt minion the enemy picked.

[Blueobelisk]

I think the issue with Kabal is simply that the enemy can literally discover any card (type).

There is some strategy involved in guessing which card the enemy picked, but it needs at least a smaller card pool for it to work.

However when someone plays Kabal Courier, they might have anything from a board clear, removal to freaking Lord Jaraxxus, the variance between Card Value and card type is way too big.

I already said that besides getting Kazakus, Kabal Courier is a fine card. However, I don't think there's any issue with guessing which card the enemy picks. I don't think it matters at all. The three decks that use Kabal Courier have so much else going on that you have to literally play around everything already.

[Pantalaimon]

That's literally the only thing in this game you have control over. If you really want to curve out, then you build your deck and mulligan around mana cost probabilities.

That's how I feel as well. If you're building your deck with a curve that is more greedy and/or top-heavy then you should be willing to take the higher risk of getting a bad/slow opening hand if that is how your mulligan goes. In all honesty this is one of the few ways that greedy decks get punished (ie the risk of having worthless cards to sit on in the early game).