Do you think honor means anything in a fight for your well being?

[Deleted]

Bushido? Didn’t their actions mostly involve chopping defenseless peasants into pieces while arguing for honor amongst samuraii?

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Well, for example, if I'm braving the African wilds, and I get attacked by a Bushman who falls me on the ground and starts straggling me... I won't be thinking of honor much, I will start fighting very dirty: bite them, trying to pull their eyes out of their sockets, etc.

Honor is only as good as you can afford it. There are situations in which you don't have much time for thinking, respecting your opponent and all that fluff, you need to do everything you can to survive. I'm saying it as someone who has done quite a lot of boxing: I know well that, despite being well conditioned for a legitimate fight, I won't shy away from resorting to primal rage mode if that is what it takes to save my life, or lives of those dear for me.

But you are making a good point. It is not quite clear what honor is, it depends on the definition and interpretation.

Boxing? Boxing is fine but most irl fight ends up on ground n not clean stand up. Wrestling is the most important skill to learn.

[GreenJesus]

Honor in battle is a thing for people that train themselves as warriors and make it their life. They are fully prepared to face any foe and deal with its consequences. If some guy is pulling a knife on ME and try to stab me (a pleb) then I will do whatever means neccessary to survive. I don't care about how "honorable" it is because I don't value myself by my fighting ability.

[ranzino]

“Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.” Darth Bane

[Fallom]

As far as my understanding of honor in European culture for instance, it really only extended to the the wealthier of folks.

Knights for instance had Chivalry. First and foremost because they rode horses (where chivalry the word comes from) in battle and protection of their employers. They were Honor bound to protect their lord and lands. Chivalry later became a more romanticized code. In wars it was much more likely to show other knights "honor" and take prisoners. Often time PoW's (Wealthy ones) would receive special treatment while imprisoned and sometimes would receive lands based on their current influence in enemy states to broker peace etc.

I'm pretty sure those Knights weren't as honorable to the poorer folks on the front lines without the money for horses and armor as they developed weapons like falchions that are literally large meat cleavers. Those folks might have had a gambison and shield and if they were lucky a helmet. Gambisons while protective don't do well when fully armored "Honorable" knights are swinging away, shooting 150# longbows or using spears.

Basically, to me, it seems a lot like a rich boys game. Make up some rules for those with the funds to go into battle with the best technology. Full plate was very effective for protection, don't let Hollywood fool you. Chop down and murder the less fortunate folk who couldn't protect themselves as well. All for a good cause, for God, for king, for country- whatever it takes to rile up the unwashed masses for a good murder fest.

Later as chivalry evolved it became more about honorable one on one duels. These were arranged fights. Either till first blood or to the death. There were rules, it was structured, they has witnesses. Everything about the duel had a system. Both fighters used the same weapons, for instance small swords and later pistols. Some guy at the market place eyed your wife's ample bosom, you decided you had enough of him, and you fought for your manly honor. You challenged him, set the place and weapon type and decided the end.

These I can get behind more. It's a dangerously organised pissing match between boys. You trained with your small sword to stab the one who slandered you. It's more a competition of penis size, or could be considered like today's sports, albeit more dangerous. Men really haven't changed much these days, we just use our fists. There is a lot of grunting, insults, heavy breathing and pushing each other, while standing in the others face trying to puff your feathers up. You don't want to kill the guy hitting on your girlfriend, but you show him who's the better man to spite him.

On the subject of self defense/war. Honor is extended to what is given to you. There is no honor in an active shooter, theft or rape situation. There is no honor in a trench or foxhole in a war. It is kill(also Disable and run away) or be killed. Self defense situations are quick, dangerous, messy and come with no warning. There isn't time to bow shake hands and swear you will fight fair. I do not believe honor extends to these situations except in the case of pure barbarism. You do not strap bombs to women and children to attack enemy solders. You do not torture, rape, use chemical weapons, You do not check to see if the intruder is dead after you have fired at him and shoot him in the head if he isn't. You must be more civilized or "Honorable" then your enemy.

[Rotted]

Dependable, I'm a martial artist and have been taught by people with different beliefs, let's use the knife example

Lesson 1: Never ever try to do fancy shit to disarm someone, you will get stabbed. Only attempt anything if you've literally got 3 walls around you and your attacker corners you. Even then, more than likely fucked,

I've been taught four distinct things when it comes to honor and knifes, I'm going to band together what each one has said

1) You disarm, you get rid of that knife by lobbing it as far away from the two of you as you can - honor
2) You disarm, you threaten to use it, usually if you're successful the initial shock of losing it and now you holding it is enough to deter - leaves honor in tact
3) You disarm, you use it for a flesh wound - Less honorable,
4) You disarm, you use it to make sure he goes down and is physically incapable of chasing you - No honor.

More so in general with honor,

You fight with you fists, knees, elbows, kicks etc. You don't beat a person who beat, I'm looking at you curb stompers, complete scum.

I've also known instructors who are fine with fighting dirty if it means you no harm, and again honor goes out the window. For example one bloke from South Wales, scary bastard, his base line rule is, if you fuck with him, he's going to end you. Now this guy is lethal, you look at him, you think, middle aged, past his prime beer belly, I've seen this dude fight and holy fuck I can express what a machine he is, how quick, agile etc. Anyways, he had three people on him a good few years ago, at one point he said one managed to get him to the ground, in mentality of thinking (we're karate btw, most styles don't do any sort of ground work) shit I don't want to be here, he grabbed a fistful of dirt or gravel w/e and he lobbed it in the guys eyes. Like he said it was a dirty move but that guy was down for a good minute, while he dealt with the other two.

Another instructor from Birmingham said when he a lot younger, he was getting chased down by a group of lads, eventually (and I have no fucking idea how) they ended up in a basement, and the first lad that came towards him to attack, he responded faster, did a uppercut, then stuck his two fingers up this guys nose while he was dazed and he literally ripped off his nose. Thats all he did, it was enough to deter the rest.

My own main instructor, is completely honor orientated, but he was sitting in his house a few years ago, when three blokes broke in, middle of the day. Now my instructors a odd bloke and said why do you need to steal my coat? are you cold I can give you a coat, why do you need to steal that food, I can feed you if your hungry. Then one of the guys kicked his dog. He responded by throwing his honor out of the window, beating two of them with his bare fists to the point they were trying to crawl out the front gate. The third one took a beating and wouldn't go down, my instructor threw him over the beach sea wall defence twice (yes he was stupid enough to climb back up it), after the second time, he proceeded to jump down after him and brake his tennis racket on this guy. (turned out later this guy was on a mix of every drug possible you could think, he was also russian just to add to the shits and giggles). And yes, my instructor was placed under arrest for assault, which was dropped a few hours later.

Personally, I detest anything that isn't fair, the dirt in the eyes for example, but at teh end of the day if its a choice between me waking up two days later in a hospital bed, or having to swallow my pride to protect myself, or preharps others, I know what I'm going to do

[Ghostpanther]

In a fight for my life, there will be no honor, and whichever way it goes, I would have zero remorse afterwards.

For myself, I think if I had to go so far as to take a life, I would still feel remorse that the situation had to go that far. But I would not feel any guilt. There is no dishonor in feeling upset about taking a human life.

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wouldn't carrying a gun be easier?

Easier to the extent it could put the struggle on more even grounds. If a elderly or weak person is in a all out fight to live with a much stronger opponent, the odds are they will lose.

[Deleted]

When we talk about honor in this context it means that there is an unspoken rule among men that we won't attempt to maim of cripple each other. Such a code is necessary so that not every altercation end in hospitalization. Attempting but failing to cheap shot someone or gouging his eyes will result in an immediate brutality escalation where the other party will in return attempt to inflict maximum damage.

If you wish to fight dirty you better expect the other guy will too, and the end might not be what you hoped for.

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Honor in this case is mostly referent to not causing unnecessary bodily harm.

Even in the case of self defense you ought to exercise a degree of self restraint. There are many cases when the person defending himself is either much better prepared (MMA trained, Boxing trained, military trained, contact sports trained) or is in an advantageous physical position (this is common when the aggressor is drunk), in such scenarios it is unnecessary to fight by "any means".

Thank you. Most of these kids seem to have no clue.

[Deleted]

Honor is not how you fight, but Why you fight, and what you do when the fighting ends.

[prwraith]

So I've read a lot on martial artist (legitimate too, not just fictional) philosophy and often hear that when you are in a fight concerning your safety, it is necessary to maintain dignity and not resort to "dirty" fighting.

What I mean by that is if someone threatens you, you just beat them down physically but at no point resort to something like pulling out a knife or kicking them in the crotch or biting them.

But to your eyes, is this legit or do you think anything is fair game in a fight for your life/well being? Like if some big burly guy tries to mug you, would it be disgusting to do something like feign defeat and pull out a revolver while cowering?

Not a chance, you fight to win. Trying to adhere to some bullshit honor code will get you killed.

[Deleted]

Not a chance, you fight to win. Trying to adhere to some bullshit honor code will get you killed.

As explained above, that is very much not true. Acting with "Honour" shows you are showing restraint, and your Opponent will most likely offer the same mercies.

[Allybeboba]

Been in that position. Training kicked in, didn't think twice.

Still have dreams about it.

[Dezerte]

In a fight for survival "honor" means nothing, it's worth squat if you're dead.

[Deleted]

In a fight for survival "honor" means nothing, it's worth squat if you're dead.

Honor is the difference between Mercy and Merciless.

[Kaganfindel]

Honorable behavior doesn't include attacking someone, so no. Fighting for sport is different from fighting for life and limb.

[ro9ue]

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beat me to it!

Lol and both of you beat me to it. As soon as I saw the thread title I was looking for that image.

[shadowmouse]

and your Opponent will most likely offer the same mercies.

Oh, hells no! Never assume that! Do, however, expect him to be willing to sucker punch you given half a chance, and somewhere behind you he may just have a buddy that is going to help him stomp you. If you don't see a weapon, it doesn't mean there isn't one -- it means you haven't spotted it.

[Docturphil]

Honor should be reserved for those who deserve it. A thief or a murderer does not deserve honor.

[Lumineus]

[Dezerte]

As explained above, that is very much not true. Acting with "Honour" shows you are showing restraint, and your Opponent will most likely offer the same mercies.

Would not the attack from my opponent be evidence enough that they have no honor?

[zenkai]

So I've read a lot on martial artist (legitimate too, not just fictional) philosophy and often hear that when you are in a fight concerning your safety, it is necessary to maintain dignity and not resort to "dirty" fighting.

What I mean by that is if someone threatens you, you just beat them down physically but at no point resort to something like pulling out a knife or kicking them in the crotch or biting them.

But to your eyes, is this legit or do you think anything is fair game in a fight for your life/well being? Like if some big burly guy tries to mug you, would it be disgusting to do something like feign defeat and pull out a revolver while cowering?

British fought with honor, American's fought them guerrilla style. and we know who won.