High end raiding in huge decline?

[Bonkura]

Is it just me or is it weird that Heroic is considered casual?

Casual is subjective. Guilds that are raiding mythic but aren't likely to clear content before next tier is released are casual in my eyes but a lot of people probably don't share that opinion.

[ls-]

Is it just me or is it weird that Heroic is considered casual?

I wrote more casual crowd, people who are more casual than mythic raiders.

TBF, you can play pretty casually and do 10/10 NH HC, there's a huge difference between bad players and casual players, but for some reason many people think that casuals are bads and bads are casuals.

[Deleted]

I agree however on it is more grindy now to raid than before, mostly at the first 2-3 months of legion because of legendaries, but they did some tweaks to it, and now it works pretty good. As good as ever before.

Legendaries are still unbalanced. 7.2 repeats legion release without any significant changes. In what world it "works pretty good"?

Is it just me or is it weird that Heroic is considered casual?

Bad case of rebranding.

[Grimnakh]

WoD was great for raiding. 99% of complains "i'm done with everything and have nothing to do" were from people who didn't do anything beyond LFR. Right now they are being entertained by doing same world quests every day. Proper raiders knew what to do.


No, why? You didn't even have gear upgrade in ToT until mid-raid patch.


High end raiding guild do have people with a lot of time. They basically nolifed this game since Legion came out. And yes, it did affect Nighthold tuning. Blizzard doesn't want raid to be next EN because of publicity, even though it got tuned alright for a guild that didn't have everyone nolifing for a month prior.


Why it doesn't matter? There's a lot of players who enjoy playing several specs depending on encounter. Also hybrid players. If a raid find A needs 3 healers while fight B needs 4 any reasonable guild gets screwed unless this hybrid players plays twice as much compared to everyone else. Real world guilds don't have perfect rosters.


Infinite non-raiding activity that gives enough rewards to affect raiding. This is an example. It doesn't need to be this extreme to have an impact. Disenchanting most of the gear unless it procs titanforging feels awful.

This is why you cant give these people what they want, they'd kill the game if they did.

[Deleted]

This is why you cant give these people what they want, they'd kill the game if they did.

Did raiders ask for this? Raid finder heroes asked this for raiders. Feedback from raiders simply got ignored because giving out shiny legendaries from a Blingtron box had higher priority.

[Romarii]

I just looked some facts and I found high end raiding isn't as popular anymore. Is content too hard or do WoW have much less subs nowadays?

https://www.wowprogress.com/boss/kil...36#first_kills

In link above you can see about 5 and half months around 2000 guilds killed Kil'jaeden

https://www.wowprogress.com/encounte.../next/20#first

And here you can see in 5 months only ~430 guilds killed Archimonde mythic. Both are final bosses of their expansion and still gap is that huge. Should they make mythic raiding more casual friendly?

Whats the point of doing mythic raiding if I can't use my sweet items to kill under geared scrubs in battlegrounds? Now its just a casual ground of people wacking eachother with noodles. Now reward = no incentive

[Doffen]

Legendaries are still unbalanced. 7.2 repeats legion release without any significant changes. In what world it "works pretty good"?

Because most people will have 5-8 legendaries by then.

Again, its all subjective. What I think works pretty good might not apply to you.

[Grimnakh]

Did raiders ask for this? Raid finder heroes asked this for raiders. Feedback from raiders simply got ignored because giving out shiny legendaries from a Blingtron box had higher priority.

Vocal mythic/wannabe mythic raiders have pretty much nonstop been asking for a version of WoW where they can log in for 9-20 hours a week, raid and only raid, and have no disadvantage over players that do other content as well. They want a version of WoW with zero progression outside raids once you have raid gear(and little to no work to get ready to start raiding) with clear, and inviolable gear walls between difficulties making all other content obsolete after less than a week of a new raid being released. Of course, even WoD didnt gonfar enough for them since there were apexis grinds that were still necessary.

[Deleted]

Because most people will have 5-8 legendaries by then.

Again, its all subjective. What I think works pretty good might not apply to you.

How much more clueless can you be? Because "people" already have 10-12 legendaries. And it's still not even close to being done.

[Doffen]

How much more clueless can you be? Because "people" already have 10-12 legendaries. And it's still not even close to being done.

10-12 is close to twice of what I wrote.

Think you just lost the argument(twice) and got nothing better going for you.

Later.

[Grimnakh]

Did raiders ask for this? Raid finder heroes asked this for raiders. Feedback from raiders simply got ignored because giving out shiny legendaries from a Blingtron box had higher priority.

Vocal mythic/wannabe mythic raiders have pretty much nonstop been asking for a version of WoW where they can log in for 9-20 hours a week, raid and only raid, and have no disadvantage over players that do other content as well. They want a version of WoW with zero progression outside raids once you have raid gear(and little to no work to get ready to start raiding) with clear, and inviolable gear walls between difficulties making all other content obsolete after less than a week of a new raid being released(and then those raids becoming obsolete once youve got all your bis, presumably then they can unsub and wait for the next raid). Of course, even WoD didnt go far enough for them since there were apexis grinds that were still necessary, and the legendary ring was time gated over a long period of time.

[Halicia]

Oh I dont know, love of the game? Crazy idea I know.

The crazy idea was when I thought I was having more fun running on a harder treadmill.

I could care less what "game" I'm playing, so long as I'm having fun with the people I'm playing it with.

There was an old guild/mmo I played where when weekly maintenance came around, we'd hop over to a website and play pictionary. Fun is fun.

[Relapses]

I will never understand why people like you go online and just make up random bullshit lies when it's so easy to fact check...

If we count time since world first kill, it's been 46 days since Exosus killed Gul'dan. 68 guilds have killed him at 20 players per guild, so that's 1360 players.

46 days after Garroshfirst died 47 25 man guilds had killed him, and 27 10 man guilds, for a total of 1445 players.

In what way has it "dramatically increased" when it has gone from 1445 to 1360? That's not even a mistake by you, you just simply made it up.

I will never understand why players with a massive throbbing hard on for geriatric-friendly WNBA-tier 10M raiding cannot even entertain the very real possibility that Mythic Gul'dan is likely a more difficult encounter. And who in their right fucking mind judges raid participation levels by the last fucking boss of the instance? If you're going to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty, at least have the decency to have an argument which makes sense.

[Deleted]

mythic raiders have pretty much nonstop been asking

They didn't ask. They had it already. It works perfectly for those who have a real job while still serving enough to play for those with unlimited time. Here's the thing: vocal casuals still have unlimited time. They aren't good enough to play raids or to enjoy PvP. But their "i am not good enough" was told as "i have nothing to do" which has never been true. Devs can't print infinite LFR for them.
And whole "you can go at your own pace" is just another buzzword lie. Infinite farm inflates character power level expectations way more than limited one. See: casual claiming how 8 legendaries are going to be common deep into 7.2 while current "average" number is already more than that.

[Lumineus]

Devs can't print infinite LFR for them.

Well that's just patently false. They could achieve this instantly by removing the loot lockout. But hardcores would bitch about having to run it endlessly "because muh Titanforged tier!" It would be like M+ on crack.

[Ipsissimus]

Yet again the loud casual oriented players on MMO-Champion pretend like Legion isn't completely different from any previous iteration of this game.

WoW was made, launched and succeeded as a raiding-centric MMORPG. A player who wants character progression had to achieve it via more difficult in-game content, and said content had lockouts on it preventing those who had no other obligations from advancing at a rapid pace compared to those who did. Whether this was due to content limitations or game design choices is irrelevant, no one sensible was whining how they can only clear the raid once a week or the dungeon once a day unless they were revisiting old content to farm a mount or a pet.

You no longer need to do more difficult content to have more character progression. It's still theoretically the fastest way* if you're good enough, but there are people out there running around with 925 Draught of Souls from LFR and 10% damage increase legendaries which dropped from a world boss they can zerg with infinite other people. How much time you have to spend affects your character's progression far more critically in Legion than it ever did in a previous expansion. You can argue all you like about how much you love it and how it's amazing for the game or whatever else, but stop implying or outright stating that that's how the game always functioned. One mustn't tell lies.

Our wishes that the game returns to form have little to do with entitlement or inflated ego, we just want the game that we've been playing for the past decade+-.

*After they fixed the AP from extra chests nonsense that had us engaged in exciting spam of +2 and +3 keys.

[Deleted]

Well that's just patently false. They could achieve this instantly by removing the loot lockout..

Yes. But ingame movie would be the same every time. "I want to see other big dude do nothing and die" after a week.

But hardcores would bitch about having to run it endlessly "because muh Titanforged tier!"

"bitch" is wrong word. "Putting proper complain" is correct one. Are you forgetting dragon soul LFR? That's the reality.

Our wishes that the game returns to form have little to do with entitlement or inflated ego, we just want the game that we've been playing for the past decade+

If someone never played organized raiding he would never know what this game about when you play every aspect of it. For everyone saying this game is fine this whole time this game was yet another single player game with WC3 decorations.
Too much focus on RPG part of MMORPG when the game is essentially both.

[Doffen]

See: casual claiming how 8 legendaries are going to be common deep into 7.2 while current "average" number is already more than that.

Haha! If you read though, the casual said close to 8 legendaries now, not deep into 7.2. Deep into 7.2 mosts raiders(even casuals) got 8-12 by then.

Casual isn't a mean word btw, you don't insult anyone with it

[Deleted]

Casual isn't a mean word btw, you don't insult anyone with it

Of course. Mythic raider is can be casual player. As it should be.
But current one meant as someone who doesn't interact with other players, which results in being completely clueless. So, why should someone completely clueless give an advice to those who know a lot more?

[Doffen]

Of course. Mythic raider is can be casual player. As it should be.
But current one meant as someone who doesn't interact with other players, which results in being completely clueless. So, why should someone completely clueless give an advice to those who know a lot more?

Well you are uninformed so I guess you could ask people who knows more.