PLEASE Don't Have KJ Turn on the Sargeras/the Legion

[Zyky]

To quote in-game text: Kil'Jaeden's Burning Wish: "Kil'jaeden the Deceiver, supreme commander of the Burning Legion, has a simple agenda: consume all life and magic, assimilate every race into the Legion's ranks, slay any who dare resist, and destroy all of creation". Kil'Jaeden has a special spot for Velen in his hit list, but he does care about destroying all creations very much as well.

You're quoting a single trinket that goes against the mountains of lore that we know as fact? Is that really your single piece of evidence?

[Qualia]

You're quoting a single trinket that goes against the mountains of lore that we know as fact? Is that really your single piece of evidence?

Which "mountains of lore that we know as fact" stated that Kil'Jaeden has no interest whatsoever in destroying all creations? Would you mind giving me some quotes and their sources? Is that the same mountains of lore from which people claimed that the Old Gods can't be killed? Also, keep in mind the law of canonicity - later canon override existing ones if there is any conflict between them, unless stated otherwise by author(s) (in this case, Blizzard devs)

Edit: additionally, other than the in-game text (which by itself would be enough to be considered canon, mind you), it was stated so in Kil'Jaeden description text in March badness on the main site as well:

Seduced long ago by promises of power from the dark titan Sargeras, the eredar demon lord Kil'jaeden leads the Burning Legion as demons scorch entire worlds with fel corruption. His agenda is evil: consume life and magic, assimilate every possible race into the Legion's ranks, slay any who dare resist, and ultimately destroy all of creation.

[Zyky]

Which "mountains of lore that we know as fact" stated that Kil'Jaeden has no interest whatsoever in destroying all creations? Would you mind giving me some quotes and their sources? Is that the same mountains of lore from which people claimed that the Old Gods can't be killed? Also, keep in mind the law of canonicity - later canon override existing ones if there is any conflict between them, unless stated otherwise by author(s) (in this case, Blizzard devs)

I'll give you 4 book titles, you're free to go look for yourself, buy the book(s), don't care. In terms of "law of canonicity" one is post-trinket that you're attempting to claim trumps everything. Rise of the Horde, Shadows & Light, Chronicles 1, and Chronicles 2.

[OIS]

I mean they hinted at Gul'dan wanting to turn good very very briefly in the audio drama, but didn't follow though. Though I'd really like to hear some examples of someone turning good or doing a sacrificial good deed. Please give a few good examples because I can't think of a single time. And no Illidan doesn't count, when they share his story we're actually the bad guys for defeating him.

Gul'dan didn't want to turn good, he wanted to break off from the Legion and steal the power of the Tomb of Sargeras, because at that moment he had just learned that his MU counterpart was killed by the Legion.

[Zyky]

Gul'dan didn't want to turn good, he wanted to break off from the Legion and steal the power of the Tomb of Sargeras, because at that moment he had just learned that his MU counterpart was killed by the Legion.

I felt that he wanted to at least turn a little good, sure he wanted to keep the power, but I felt it as he knew he couldn't beat the Alliance/Horde alone, so his options were attempt to turn good, go solo, or continue with the Legion. Going solo wasn't an option, turning 'good' wasn't an option either because odds are he would have just been killed, so he decided to just trust Kil'jaeden.

[Qualia]

I'll give you 4 book titles, you're free to go look for yourself, buy the book(s), don't care. In terms of "law of canonicity" one is post-trinket that you're attempting to claim trumps everything. Rise of the Horde, Shadows & Light, Chronicles 1, and Chronicles 2.

I have all 4 of them with me, in either physical or PDF form (or both). I can assure you in none of them can you find any quote stating that Kil'Jaeden has no interest whatsoever in destroying all creations - especially in Chronicle (in fact, it wasn't even mentioned how Kil'Jaeden feel towards destroying everything). Again, feel free to give me any new quote you can find to show that you aren't just claiming it based on headcanons like all those "Old Gods can't die" people who cited "I read somewhere that..." or "A blue posted that..." but never able to give any quote.

[nothingsjim]

Personally, I believe KJ is just sick of Sargeras wanting to take Azeroth alive. Like the oh so many I Want Them Alive Tropes can tell you, trying to capture the hero (or in this case, a Titan Soul) alive never ends well.

KJ probably has some trump cards that he can use to outright wipe a planet off the universe, but doing so would kill the world soul inside so Sargeras forbids him. When you have a working plan that your boss forbid you from using for 10000 years, ya I would be pretty pissed off too.

[UnluckyAmateur]

They're apart of the same team...However....

Kil'jaeden's pulling a Megatron/Galvatron, While Sargeras is pulling a Unicron...

That's actually the best comparison I have seen on this site.

[Leodok]

He's been wanting to turn on Sargeras for a while. We've seen that before.

But don't worry, he'll not become our friend. The worst possible scenario I can see happening is him getting sorry shortly before dieing. Then Velen says "farewell, brother" or something, and KJ is dead.

He looks almost... hurt still.

That's exactly how he should look. He hasn't been hunting the draenei for the last 26.000 years because "lul im evil". He feels betrayed by Velen, whom he used to consider as a brother.

[therealbowser]

Watch all of this happen, only for it all to lead to Sargeras' Death...

Kil'jaeden dies in the nether..

We go to Argus

Sargeras presses the Fuck it Button

He fights us

We absorb the Pillars of creation, while Absorbing the powers of Azeroth's titan for a few...

And Sargeras dies, cause of our United power...

We lose that power

Not, onto Naga/Old Gods.

Watch it happen...

This is exactly what I think will happen, more or less, with the exception of KJ having permadeath. It's totally possible but not guaranteed or even necessarily likely.

I mean it would strike me as odd if we killed Kil'jaeden before we can even reach Argus, but I suppose it is possible.

Either way, I've suspected the next expansion will feature Azshara and the old gods since before the start of Legion; it is just logical, and more and more evidence turns that way as we continue through the expansion.

[Deleted]

He is in too deep to turn away. He doomed his planet and persecuted his people. I don't think there any going back to him. He will blame Sargeras and see his mistakes in the end, but it won't change his end. Don't think Velen would accept that either after what he's done.

[therealbowser]

He's been wanting to turn on Sargeras for a while. We've seen that before.

It's implied this is a possibility. It makes me wonder... and wonder if this will be what causes Sargeras's downfall; his own lieutenants turning on him and screwing up his plans. If so, I wonder if he'll regret any of it before the end.

But don't worry, he'll not become our friend. The worst possible scenario I can see happening is him getting sorry shortly before dieing. Then Velen says "farewell, brother" or something, and KJ is dead.

I genuinely hope this doesn't happen. Sounds really anticlimactic, and a real letdown. If he's going to fight to the end, he shouldn't apologize for it. Especially after all he has done. This is almost on the scale of the draenei cheering on Grommash as a hero bad... but to be fair, this is a little out of context and I am taking your reference literally.

That's exactly how he should look. He hasn't been hunting the draenei for the last 26.000 years because "lul im evil". He feels betrayed by Velen, whom he used to consider as a brother.

This. Also, I really like that they are finally showing KJ's emotional side ingame, beyond "I hate the draenei". That he actually cares about something (Argus) and is concerned about failing (IE accepting it as a possibility) is a big character development. It means the stakes are higher, and the confrontation is going to be more personal. I'm looking forward to the showdown.

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He is in too deep to turn away. He doomed his planet and persecuted his people. I don't think there any going back to him. He will blame Sargeras and see his mistakes in the end, but it won't change his end. Don't think Velen would accept that either after what he's done.

While he certainly would not turn good, he could turn on Sargeras and simply escape. He could be the leader of what is left of the broken Burning Legion after Sargeras dies, possibly to use to his own ends instead of further Sargeras's plans. I'm not saying this is how it should be, but it is how it could be.

[TheFirstOnes]

Ya know, it always struck me....

Elune can create Constellations off of dead people with just her FUCKING PRESENCE!

And if that were the case...then...

WHY DOESN'T SHE USE THAT POWER AGAINST SARGERAS?! Is he stronger, or...eh?

[Deleted]

While he certainly would not turn good, he could turn on Sargeras and simply escape. He could be the leader of what is left of the broken Burning Legion after Sargeras dies, possibly to use to his own ends instead of further Sargeras's plans. I'm not saying this is how it should be, but it is how it could be.

Sure, if they want to keep the Legion around. But i don't see the point. I don't see why he would change his ways or why anyone would accept him after what he did. I would more easily accept Illidan grabbing command of the broken legion. That would make more sense.

[faithbane]

KJ yells: Imprudent whelps! You've rushed headlong to your own deaths! See now, the master stirs!

KJ yells: Behold Sargeras - the Dark Titan! He who was ancient when this world was young! Bow before him, mortals! Bow before your ending!

Sargeras yells: TOO SOON! YOU HAVE LAUNCHED THE INVASION TOO SOON, KJ! WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS INTRUSION?

KJ yells: These mortal infidels, my lord! They have invaded your tomb and seek to seal your portal!

Sargeras yells: FOOL! YOU ALLOWED THESE INSECTS TO RUN RAMPANT THROUGH THE HALLOW TOMB? AND NOW YOU LEAD THEM TO MY VERY AVATAR? YOU HAVE FAILED ME, KJ! JUSTICE SHALL BE MET, INDEED! <Sargeras kills KJ>

SARGERAS yells: NOW FOR YOU, INSECTS! BOLDLY, YOU SOUGHT THE POWER OF SARGERAS. NOW YOU SHALL SEE IT FIRSTHAND!

[RyanEX]

That's actually the best comparison I have seen on this site.

And the end result will probably be the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4GaPcLgOs

[MechaCThun]

All of this talk about KJ turning on Sargeras, ugh this is exactly what I don't want lol.

Such a tired trope each expansion:

BC - Akama betrays Illidan, Kael betrays him further
WotLK - Varimathras and Putress betray the Horde, Loken betrays the Keepers (Old God shenanigans)
Cata - Staghelm betrays the night elves, Archbishop Benedictus betrays the Alliance (more Old God shenanigans)
MoP - uh... Garrosh betrays the Horde?
WoD - Cho'gall betrays Gul'dan, Orgrim *betrays* Blackhand (more like the traditional good guy turn)

I'm sure I missed a bunch but you it seems like the obvious choice Blizzard likes to go is either sow the seeds for a betrayal or pulls the betrayal-rabbit-out-of-the-hat

[therealbowser]

Sure, if they want to keep the Legion around. But i don't see the point. I don't see why he would change his ways or why anyone would accept him after what he did. I would more easily accept Illidan grabbing command of the broken legion. That would make more sense.

Having a character allied with us controlling the most powerful force in the universe seems a bit odd. Really, if the Legion were on our side, what could ever threaten us again? Seems like a boring option in my biased perspective. Maybe it could work, but it would make more sense if it became a group no longer bent on destroying the universe and simply pursued its own goals instead.

Certainly doesn't need to be KJ leading it, or anyone else, but it would be highly odd if a character aligned to us controlled it. But it is ultimately a possibility.

[Makorus]

Having a character allied with us controlling the most powerful force in the universe seems a bit odd. Really, if the Legion were on our side, what could ever threaten us again? Seems like a boring option in my biased perspective. Maybe it could work, but it would make more sense if it became a group no longer bent on destroying the universe and simply pursued its own goals instead.

Certainly doesn't need to be KJ leading it, or anyone else, but it would be highly odd if a character aligned to us controlled it. But it is ultimately a possibility.

That's why they introduced a new and stronger faction before Legion

[MikeBogina]

Kind of looking back at Blizzard's formula for how they have built up villains. A theme that occurs often is when a big bad guy is designated in the beginning, and as the story progresses we see he/she/it is struggling with some inner turmoil in regards to loyalties or moral, and then at the climax he/she/it ends up turning good OR doing that one sacrificial good deed to help the protagonists.

Chris Metzen loves a good redemption story. So now even Sargeras is only bad, to save the universe. Illidan was only bad to stop the Legion and so on.

The 7.2. trailer certainly implied frustration Kil'jaeden has with Sargeras due to (in his mind) the consistent failures of the Burning Legion. Frustrated enough to make it to the level of almost BLAMING Sargeras.

Made me remember this

Kil'jaeden yells: "The expendable have perished... So be it! Now I shall succeed where Sargeras could not! I will bleed this wretched world and secure my place as the true master of the Burning Legion. The end has come! Let the unraveling of this world commence!"

And also, unless I'm looking too much into it, you can tell during the scene of Kil'jaeden watching the dudes @ Krasus Landing speak that when Velen begins talking about the true masters of the Legion revealing themselves, and speaks about Kil'jaeden (calling him a monster, etc)... the look of utter sadness on KJ's face followed by anger. He looks almost... hurt still.

Mannoroth and Archimonde were evil and against us to the end.KJ is supposed to be infinitely more evil and devious than they.

KJ was originally a good person and he loved Velen like a brother. When him and Archimonde turned, he felt betrayal that Velen didn't join him and made it his personal vendetta to get rid of them, whereas Archimonde didn't really care what happened to them. KJ didn't join the Legion know they were evil, like archimonde did and like every Demon Hunter and DeathKnight, to resist the evil within takes a lot.

His hurt feelings you see here, might actually drive him more towards hating us than Archimonde ever did, because we're and Velen, a reminder that he made the wrong choice.

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Having a character allied with us controlling the most powerful force in the universe seems a bit odd. Really, if the Legion were on our side, what could ever threaten us again? Seems like a boring option in my biased perspective. Maybe it could work, but it would make more sense if it became a group no longer bent on destroying the universe and simply pursued its own goals instead.

Certainly doesn't need to be KJ leading it, or anyone else, but it would be highly odd if a character aligned to us controlled it. But it is ultimately a possibility.

Most of the Legion is probably gonna be part of the Dark army/Army of the Void. Trick Sargeras into a crusade against all life, converting millions as you go into power junkies who are moved by their fear than their courage.

When the Void Lords show up or their avatars, the Legion's armies will either be easily influenced by their fel blood(Void will easily trump fel) or the promises of power or a fate worse than true death.

We're gonna need a few Legion commanders, ones who were aware of Sargeras' true plans(not the kill cause its fun, but save the universe from the void) to aid us.