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  1. #661
    The Lightbringer Molis's Avatar
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    They tried to sell diversity because PC culture and society said that was the right thing to do.

    Turns out that is not actually what their customer base wanted.

    Business 101 listen to your customers. They pay your bills.

  2. #662
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molis View Post
    They tried to sell diversity because PC culture and society said that was the right thing to do.

    Turns out that is not actually what their customer base wanted.

    Business 101 listen to your customers. They pay your bills.
    Right. It has nothing to do with the fact that in-print publications are declining as a general trend or the fact that Marvel has bad management.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #663
    Banned Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Pssssst... comic books were always liberal.
    Pssst... not all of them. Today they all are.

  4. #664
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    This is the West, where we hold that a diverse population is one of individuals, not according to group criteria.

  5. #665
    Or maybe it's because in the age of mobile phones, pornhub, and computer gaming comic books are just not an engaging enough medium for adolescents?
    It's been a while actually since I've received a message from scrapbot...need to drink more i guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post
    Trump is a complete shitbag that's draining the country's coffers to stuff his own.
    It must be a day ending in Y.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Sigh. Learn what a first print is before discussing comic values.

    Edge of Spider-verse #2A. First print of the comic and first appearance of the character. In Near Mint (9.4/10) condition the retailer is selling it for $150.
    You miss the point.... if the comic in a decent readable condition only sell for a few dollars and a close to perfect in a alternativ front page sell for $150, its not the story peopel pay money for but the rarity of the combination of condition and alternativ front page. That do not say the caracter was not popular, but you can not use the $150 price as a arugment that peopel like the caracter.
    Last edited by mmoc957ac7b970; 2017-05-26 at 06:04 PM.

  7. #667
    I think its a combination of the price and not so much diversity as it is changing characters so they can pat themselves on the back for being diverse.

  8. #668
    Herald of the Titans Berengil's Avatar
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    The problem is two-fold.

    1) As a long-time comics fan, when a character I've been following for awhile is fundamentally changed, I drop the book. I won't pick it back up again until the change is reverted. That change might be gender-swapping, Hydra memories Cap, or w/e. I used to have a pull list at the nearest comics shop almost 40 books long. It's about 20 now.

    2) The various marketing nonsense decisions cited in the article in The Atlantic.
    " The guilt of an unnecessary war is terrible." --- President John Adams
    " America goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy." --- President John Quincy Adams
    " Our Federal Union! It must be preserved!" --- President Andrew Jackson

  9. #669
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Berengil View Post
    I used to have a pull list at the nearest comics shop almost 40 books long. It's about 20 now.
    Sorry for the off tropic question. "Pull list" Is permutations not the norm? Ger the comic in the mail and to a smale discounted price compared to buying it in store or that is a European phenomenon?



    40 books long, I gess they are leaf thin... Spoiled in having a whole story arc in one comic and widout advertising except on the the last page.

  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    You miss the point.... if the comic in a decent readable condition only sell for a few dollars and a close to perfect in a alternativ front page sell for $150, its not the story peopel pay money for but the rarity of the combination of condition and alternativ front page. That do not say the caracter was not popular, but you can not use the $150 price as a arugment that peopel like the caracter.
    Actually I can. A popular character or story will almost always be most valuable in its first printing. That is literally how it works. An extreme example of this would be Walking Dead #1. Its rare and its immensely popular which is why the first issue is with over $1000 even though its really, really easy to obtain it in an alternate printing.

    In the specific case of Gwen, her first appearance went through multiple reprints and those reprints are worth more than its cover price. This is also unusual. I can not guarantee that the comic will maintain its value but it might.

  11. #671
    Herald of the Titans Berengil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    Sorry for the off tropic question. "Pull list" Is permutations not the norm? Ger the comic in the mail and to a smale discounted price compared to buying it in store or that is a European phenomenon?



    40 books long, I gess they are leaf thin... Spoiled in having a whole story arc in one comic and widout advertising except on the the last page.
    I'm not sure if I understand your question. Let me clarify what I was talking about.

    In the US, comic book shops will often write down a "pull list" for someone. This is a list of comic books that the customer wants to buy whenever they are published. My current pull list is:

    Marvel
    Dr Strange
    Dr Strange & The Sorcerers Supreme
    Sam Wilson, Captain America
    Steve Rogers, Captain America
    The Punisher
    Amazing Spider-Man
    Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man
    Old Man Logan
    X-Men Gold
    Astonishing X-Men
    Weapon X
    Cable

    DC
    Batman
    Detective Comics
    Trinity
    Justice league
    Nightwing
    Aquaman

    Image
    Seven to Eternity (seriously, everyone should read this. Holy. Sh-t. It's good.)




    Essentially, it's a way for the customer to be ensured they will get a copy of what they want, and it helps the store owner to know how many to order. The store owner usually also orders a few more for their display racks too.
    Last edited by Berengil; 2017-05-26 at 06:38 PM.
    " The guilt of an unnecessary war is terrible." --- President John Adams
    " America goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy." --- President John Quincy Adams
    " Our Federal Union! It must be preserved!" --- President Andrew Jackson

  12. #672
    what? making everyone black/female/transgender and whatever just because they were a white male in the first place doesn't just make people interested in that character? shit who knew!?

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    Sorry for the off tropic question. "Pull list" Is permutations not the norm? Ger the comic in the mail and to a smale discounted price compared to buying it in store or that is a European phenomenon?
    I own a comic shop. A substantial portion of my sales are derived from pre-ordering and holding comics for customers. I also give a discount off of the retail price. Its assumed that the customer will continue to buy the same title until they tell me to stop or I guess that they might not want it. For example, I suspect that Doctor Strange sales will drop after the release of the next issue because the current creative team (Jason Aaron and Chris Bachalo) are leaving the comic.

  14. #674
    Yeah, I'm sure the diversity is the problem, and not the artist styles and stories

    I read another comic books, and the last 20 years or so, the newer artist styles are simply awful. Not even a fraction of how good the old artists had been.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  15. #675
    Herald of the Titans Berengil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linadra View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure the diversity is the problem, and not the artist styles and stories

    I read another comic books, and the last 20 years or so, the newer artist styles are simply awful. Not even a fraction of how good the old artists had been.
    Neal Adams > all, in my humble opinion.
    " The guilt of an unnecessary war is terrible." --- President John Adams
    " America goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy." --- President John Quincy Adams
    " Our Federal Union! It must be preserved!" --- President Andrew Jackson

  16. #676
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Berengil View Post
    I'm not sure if I understand your question. Let me clarify what I was talking about.

    Essentially, it's a way for the customer to be ensured they will get a copy of what they want, and it helps the store owner to know how many to order. The store owner usually also orders a few more for their display racks too.
    Ok I understand... in Sweden there are no "real" comic shops, its only a rack standing in a corner in a store. Some rare specialized store sells used/second hand comics . If you realy like a comic you do a subscribing, the comic is sent by mail from the publisher to you and you get a small discount bypass the store.

    I gess the culture of subscribing totaly kill real comic shops....

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Linadra View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure the diversity is the problem, and not the artist styles and stories

    I read another comic books, and the last 20 years or so, the newer artist styles are simply awful. Not even a fraction of how good the old artists had been.
    They actually said "draw more like manga the kids like manga".

    Then compare squirrell girl to one punch man and laugh.

  18. #678
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Most people that complain "OMG NOT ENUFF DIVURSITY IN COMICS" also don't buy or contribute to the Market.
    Most people who complain about disvursity in comics dot read them either as this stuff has been happening since comics were first made.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High View Post
    someone needs a hug.
    He might be being toxic about it, but he's not entirely wrong.

    Instead of creating new characters they're taking old ones and reworking them to suit the various group of the month. Example...instead of making an all new gay mutant they instead take Iceman and give him some laughable cringe worthy story about how he's been suppressing his sexual identity so well that that neither Jean Grey or Xavier even had an inkling of it.

    Sometimes they do it well, like making Falcon the new Captain America.
    Sometimes they do a "meh" job like what they did to Thor.
    Then they do a "omgruoutofurfuckingminds" like what they did with Iron Man.

    Guess which one tends to be the majority with Marvel following over itself to try and cater to everyone, rather than the fans that've stuck with them through thick and thin.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  20. #680
    The Lightbringer Clone's Avatar
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    I guess nobody read the article I linked to necro this thread.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...utm_source=twb

    Marvel Comics has been having a rough time lately. Readers and critics met last year’s Civil War 2—a blockbuster crossover event (and a spiritual tie-in to the year’s big Marvel movie)—with disinterest and scorn. Two years of plummeting print comics sales culminated in a February during which only one ongoing superhero title managed to sell more than 50,000 copies.* Three crossover events designed to pump up excitement came and went with little fanfare, while the lead-up to 2017’s blockbuster crossover Secret Empire—where a fascist Captain America subverts and conquers the United States—sparked such a negative response that the company later put out a statement imploring readers to buy the whole thing before judging it. On March 30, a battered Marvel decided to try and get to the bottom of the problem with a retailer summit—and promptly stuck its foot in its mouth.

    “What we heard was that people didn’t want any more diversity,” David Gabriel, the company’s senior vice president of sales and marketing, told an interviewer at the summit. “They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not ... We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against.”

    Despite an attempt by Gabriel to walk back the quote, the remarks kicked up another firestorm of criticism by those concerned Marvel was shifting the blame for poor sales on to “diverse” characters—particularly since, contrary to the company’s claims, sales data showed that minority-led books were actually doing relatively well compared to books starring white male characters.

    At first glance, the dustup was an industry cliche: The relative lack of diverse creators—and characters—has been a bone of contention for years at both DC and Marvel. But in the aftermath of Marvel’s rocky first quarter—and with the controversial Secret Empire now in full swing—it’s clear the publisher’s problems run more deeply than an ill-timed storyline or public-relations fumbles. Audiences are drifting away. New fans feel ignored. Despite movies that dominate the cultural landscape and regularly clear millions of dollars, the entire edifice of corporate superhero comics represented by both publishers has been quietly crumbling for years, partially due to Marvel’s own business practices. Marvel can’t seem to actually sell comics, diverse or not—and the company only has itself to blame.

    * * *

    The comics industry these days is much diminished from its heyday. Beginning in the 1970s, corporate comics publishers moved away from selling through newsstands and grocery stores, turning instead to “the direct market,” which allowed buyers to purchase books straight from the publishers. This change both fueled the growth of specialty-comics shops and led to the corporate monopoly held by Diamond Comics Distributors, the middleman between retailers and publishers. In the 1990s, an issue of the popular The Amazing Spider-Man that sold around 70,000 would be considered a failure. The collapse of the comics speculation bubble in the mid 1990s—a bubble partially fueled by Marvel’s own encouragement of the speculator boom and flooding of the market—dealt a blow to the market it never quite recovered from. These days, what counts as a successful superhero book is anything that can sell a regular 40-60,000 copies. Most sell quite a bit less.

    As it happens, speculation is an inherent feature of the direct market. Unlike in traditional publishing, comics sold to retailers through the direct market can’t be returned for a refund. So retailers have to preorder comics months in advance, knowing that if they order too many, they’ll be stuck with the overstock. Marvel and DC largely judge sales based on these preorders, and a low number of initial preorders can lead a publisher to cancel a series before a customer ever gets a chance to buy the first issue. There’s an incentive for publishers to push out as much product as they think the market will bear, and a narrow window for feedback. Due to the preorder system, books that might reach out to new audiences—such as those starring minority characters—are at an immense disadvantage right out of the gate. As a result, books like David F. Walker and Ramon Villalobos’s Nighthawk or Kate Leth and Brittney Williams’s Patsy Walker, AKA Hellcat!, and even spinoffs of popular series like Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Black Panther, like rarely last long before being canceled.

    The uncertainties of the direct market are something all comics companies have to navigate, and sales gimmicks like collectible “variant” covers and special, higher-priced issues are common. Big publishers like DC and Image enthusiastically take part in these gimmicks. But Marvel pursues them at a level that puts other publishers to shame. Their primary trick is the consistent (and damaging) strategy of relaunching books with #1 issues or titles.

    In 2013, for example, the writer Al Ewing began working on Mighty Avengers, focusing on a team of community-oriented superheroes led by Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. Fourteen issues later, Marvel relaunched it with a new #1 as Captain America and the Mighty Avengers, then canceled it nine issues in. In 2015, Ewing began writing both New Avengers and Ultimates, which followed characters from Mighty Avengers. Marvel relaunched both a year later—again with new #1s—as Ultimates 2 and USAvengers. Sound complicated? It gets worse: The 2013 Mighty Avengers was the third series to use the title; the 2015 Ultimates was the seventh. Both are unrelated to previous series. Such a publishing scheme is convoluted even for a committed fan; for a new reader, it’s nearly impenetrable.

    Marvel’s argument for this approach has typically been that new #1 issues both boost sales and pull in new readers. It’s true that a #1 issue tends to sell quite well on the direct market—but since retailers are ordering inflated amounts sight unseen, it’s an artificial bump at best, and sales drop sharply afterward. In fact, according to an exhaustive and entertaining analysis by the writer and game designer Colin Spacetwinks, this constant churn badly erodes the readership. G. Willow Wilson’s excellent Ms. Marvel, a series starring a young Muslim heroine from Jersey City, debuted at a circulation of roughly 50,000 before holding steady at 32,000; the relaunched version a year later began at around 79,000 before dropping sharply to a current circulation of around 20,000. “Marvel’s constant relaunching ... has been harmful to direct market sales overall,” Spacetwinks writes, “as well as harmful to building new, long-term readers.” With every relaunch, it becomes easier to jump off a title.

    Another source of instability lies in the way corporate superhero comics have largely moved away from long tenures by creative teams. Artists are now regularly swapped around on titles to meet increased production demands, which devalues their work in the eyes of fans and rarely lets a title build a consistent identity. (Imagine a television show using a new cast and crew every few episodes for a sense of how disruptive this is.) Marvel and DC are both guilty of this, but neither seems to have grasped how damaging it actually is to the books themselves—and Marvel has pursued the practice for longer.

    Marvel’s editor-in-chief Axel Alonso told an interviewer at March’s retail summit that he didn’t know if artists “[moved] the needle” anymore when it came to sales. The fact that Marvel has trained audiences to regard those artists as disposable doesn’t seem to have crossed his mind; nor does the possibility that buyers—like a few prospective comics fans I know—might be turned off by constantly rotating art teams.

    Marvel’s instinct with readers who do stick around, meanwhile, has been to squeeze them for all they’re worth. Marvel comics tend to be priced at around $3.99 to $4.99 for 22 pages, and many series ship new issues twice a month. (Digital editions are usually priced about the same.) Marvel publishes around 75 ongoing series, along with miniseries and single-issue specials. (DC, for comparison, made a concerted effort for the last few years to publish around 50 ongoing series and also had trouble making them stick.) April alone saw five “Avengers”-titled books. Then there are the crossover events—four so far this year—which interrupt the storylines of ongoing series and require readers to buy multiple other books to understand what’s going on. Reading Marvel, in other words, gets very pricey, very quickly, and the resulting flood of product exhausts retailers and ends up driving customers away.

    * * *

    Marvel’s marketing and PR must bear a hefty share of the blame as well. The company habitually places the onus for minority books’ survival on the readership, instead of promoting their product effectively. Tom Brevoort, the executive editor at Marvel, publicly urged readers to buy issues of the novelist Chelsea Cain’s canceled (and very witty) Mockingbird after the author was subjected to coordinated sexist harassment.

    The problem, however, is that the decision to cancel Mockingbird was necessarily made months in advance, due to preorder sales to retailers on the direct market. The book itself launched with only a few announcements on comics fan sites; no real attempt to reach out to a new audience was made. Marvel’s unexpected success stories, like Kelly Sue DeConnick’s Captain Marvel, are largely built on the tireless efforts of the creators themselves. (In Deconnick’s case, she paid for postcards, dog tags, and fliers for fan engagement out of her own pocket, for a character she didn’t own or have a real expectation of royalties from.)

    It might be argued that Marvel has to be judicious about what books it spends money to promote, and that good word of mouth can make up the difference for free. Again, the dropping sales numbers for Marvel’s books suggests this isn’t the case. But even if it were, the publisher’s word of mouth lately has been abysmal. The past decade has been a parade of singularly embarrassing behavior by Marvel writers and editors in public. The former editor Stephen Wacker has a reputation for picking fights with fans; so does the Spider-Man writer Dan Slott. The writer Peter David went on a bizarre anti-Romani rant at convention (he later apologized); the writer Mark Waid recently mused about punching a critic in the face before abandoning Twitter. The writer of Secret Empire, Nick Spencer, has managed to become a swirl of social media sturm all by himself, partially for his fascist Captain America storyline and partially for his tone-deaf handling of race and general unwillingness to deal with criticism.

    What’s frustrating about all of this is that Marvel has recently demonstrated an interest in publishing good, socially conscious books. Ewing’s Ultimates and Avengers work is consistently charming and witty; Ryan North and Erica Henderson’s Unbeatable Squirrel Girl is an unalloyed delight; G. Willow Wilson and Adrian Alphona’s Ms. Marvel deserves all the praise it has gotten and more. Yet the company’s strategy has largely been to launch books into a flooded market—one, again, that they themselves have flooded—and let them sink or swim. Books like The Amazing Spider-Man have enough name recognition that they’re always going to sell with minimal marketing. Books led by newer, more diverse characters, no matter how good they are, do not have that luxury. Marvel may publish good books, but without full commitment from the company, many of those books are being set up for failure—and allowing Marvel’s audience dwindle.

    * * *

    For all of the cultural preeminence of Spider-Man or The Avengers, the superhero-comics industry remains a sideshow. The media conglomerates that own DC and Marvel use both publishers largely as intellectual-property farms, capitalizing on and adapting creators’ work for movies, television shows, licensing, and merchandise. That’s where the money is. Disney has very little incentive to invest in the future of the comic-book industry, or to attempt to help Marvel Comics reach new audiences, when they’re making millions on the latest Marvel film. If the publisher wants to pull itself out of this slump, it’ll require a fundamental shift in the way the company thinks about selling comics. The trick is sustainability, not short-term profits, and that requires not just staunching the drain in customers but actively attracting new ones. That involves figuring out what prospective readers want, not what they will simply tolerate.

    A potential example lies in popular series from Image Comics like Robert Kirkman and Charlie Adlard’s The Walking Dead and Brian K. Vaughn and Fiona Staples’s Saga. The former sells fairly steadily at around 75,000 units through the direct market, and the latter sells around 50,000.** Collected editions are regulars on graphic-novel bestseller lists. While the series are long-running, they offer a consistent and contained experience, with a writer and artist working in sync and constant fan engagement. These sorts of books aren’t constantly relaunched, and they aren’t burdened with multiple spinoffs. They’re easy to follow in collected editions. They don’t offer the dizzying direct market highs of a new #1, but after years, they’ve maintained a dependable and fervent following.

    Marvel and DC might emulate this model by cutting back on the number of series they publish and the frequency with which they ship them. Both companies could be more judicious in pairing artists and writers for sustained periods, promoting series outside of the usual channels, and warmly engaging with fans. Instead of simply telling people to buy their books, they could instruct new audiences how. And they could listen to what new audiences say they want: diversity not just in racial, religious, or sexual terms, but also in terms of the types of stories told: Is there really any more harm in publishing a comic where Captain America has a romantic cup of coffee with his boyfriend Bucky than one where he’s a Nazi?

    There are signs that Marvel is beginning to take reader and retailer concerns partially seriously: The company has promised that its new “Legacy” initiative will keep crossovers to a minimum, will have fewer incessant relaunches, and will maintain a focus on diverse characters. The question is whether the company will be able to resist going back to its old habits. After all, there are only so many times you can relaunch yourself before people wonder if what you have is really worth buying.
    It's not diversity ruining comic sales, it's shitty business practice. Blaming the liberal boogeyman is stupid and is really just anti-left emotional masturbation.

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