Draught or Frond with no Mantle?

[mrnicegai420]

As the title states which do you guys think is better a 895 dos or a 875 frond socketed given no Mantle of the Master Assassin.

I would assume the dos but a people only seem to like using draught with shoulders.

[Eazy]

Plenty of TOP Assassination rogues are using now Frond instead of DoS.

TOP Krosus and Trilliax:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...tion&boss=1867
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...tion&boss=1842

[Korkk]

That's simply because of the RNG involved with frond. It -CAN- be better than draught, but it can also suck. As to the OP's question, 895 dos or socketed 875 frond, you'd have to sim it (and keep in mind sims currently over-estimate frond damage.)

[BO7CH]

I wouldn't use Draught without mantle. I think the sims over estimating frond damage has been proven false as well.

[Faildevil]

Draught is dealing about 8-9% of my overall dmg, it depens on if I can get a third or fourth cast at the end of a boss fight.
All you trade in is maximum 12 seconds (with 4 casts) of not auto attacking.
On my last M Krosus fight for example that would mean:
- 4 casts ->22,7m dmg
- melee was overall 15,5m dmg over 350 seconds (-12 seconds for DOS), without DOS it would have been about 16m.

Only downside is the haste. Maybe I will change my 910 DOS for a 905 horn of valor, I will have to sim it.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't use Draught without mantle. I think the sims over estimating frond damage has been proven false as well.

Dont use DoS with shoulders anymore duo to the talent nerf.

[Deleted]

All you trade in is maximum 12 seconds (with 4 casts) of not auto attacking.

- melee was overall 15,5m dmg over 350 seconds (-12 seconds for DOS), without DOS it would have been about 16m.

You still auto during DoS.

[Kaluna]

Don't forget DoS have haste and Frond a huge pool of agility.
The proc does not do everything.

[Tradu]

Plenty of TOP Assassination rogues are using now Frond instead of DoS.

TOP Krosus and Trilliax:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...tion&boss=1867
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...tion&boss=1842

One thing to keep in mind for Krosus is that you can't miss the boss with white hits, which makes Frond a lot stronger than on other bosses for dualwield specs.

[Kortiah]

There are a few things to think about when comparing Frond and DoS:

- Frond is Agility vs DoS haste : which means Frond gives a LOT more pure DPS than DoS if we count out the procs
- DoS's % of our damage is high because we lose damage everywhere else, since we trade off Agility for Haste (which isn't null value, but sucks a lot)
- Frond is VERY VERY VERY INCONSISTENT. That's why it's 1) High in sims 2) what top parsers are wearing when they are top-parsing. Its damage relies on procs, sure, but MOSTLY if you re-proc it when you already have the buff active. Re-proccing the buff when you're a second away from it fading it winning the lottery because you refresh the buff at 15 stacks, so you'll be at 15 stacks for 16-18sec which is huge. I've done pulls where the trinket was my 2nd source of damage for the first 40% of Krosus. But you can also have 2 procs in the fight and if you lose even a couple seconds moving and not auto-attacking, you'll lose a lot.

That's why it sims high in simulations : you're doing thousands of iterations and doing a medium. So it's high because sometimes it's bonkers and sometimes it's the worst trinket in the game. But that doesn't matter since you've simmed 15,000 krosus pulls. But realistically, you'll only do ~150 maybe 200 at most during the whole expansion. And that means some of those pull you'll be at 2% damage, some at 9%. But I still think it's a better trinket than DoS (without mantle) or any other because of its Agility. I also can't wait to change it for something less RNG. Because god knows we don't need more rng as rogues ...

[Xanatu]

I'm really shocked that frond is doing as well as it is. I think a lot of this could be the rarity of a mythic-level draught compared to a mythic-level frond, though. Even those top parses, frond is only doing 4-5% (which beats the shit out of the 2% I always used to get with it). I think it'll be worth checking back in a few weeks.

[Faildevil]

I tried my 890 NBF yesterday on various mythic bosses. Best was about 5% overall dmg on trillax kill.
On our bad Krosus trys the trinket dealt avg about 2% of my damage, for the kill I used draught again which dealt about 8%.
On Alluriel pulls, it dealt again only about 1-2%. That is super underwhelming.

[Deleted]

The reason frond is used I think is mostly about potential. It has the potential to also do 8% of your damage...not reliably of course but due to the haste vs agi on the trinket it only has to do about 4+-0,5% to break even with dos depending on final dps (3.75 at 800), anything above that is an increase

rough numbers only, the actual is more liquid than that =)

[Deleted]

If you want something like Frond but more consistent, the arcanogolem is pretty ok. Same agi pool and a regular proc doing around 3.5% of my dps every fight.

[Halobob87]

Are people still asking this? I saw this question like 100k times :/ .
Without mantle, DoS and Frond are close in value, pick DoS if u want consistency, pick frond if u wanna belive in rnjesus.

[shrunken]

That's simply because of the RNG involved with frond. It -CAN- be better than draught, but it can also suck. As to the OP's question, 895 dos or socketed 875 frond, you'd have to sim it (and keep in mind sims currently over-estimate frond damage.)

Sims show Frond as ~3% of my overall damage, and my parses show Frond as 2.5-5% of my dmg. Seems pretty on point.