New Destruction Math

[Vondem]

Hey all!

While most of you are agreeing with the pending changes to the destruction resource system, the inner skeptic in me has me hesitant to accept these changes with open arms. I do not believe the proposed changes will be a buff... which prompted me to do some math! Below are links to data I've compiled based on my most recent Mythic Trilliax kill (math will be summarized below the links):

Actual Data: http://imgur.com/KGv1gi7
Formulas: http://imgur.com/38Gh8p1

With these changes, converting spells into the new proposed resource system I went from 94,150,000 CB Damage to 55,286,972.22 CB Damage. Then I decided to make calculations if CB were to cost 1 shard instead of 2 (as it is in its current form) and the numbers surprised me. CB Damage went from 94,150,000 to 110,573,944.44 with shard cost reduced to 1.

This leads me to believe that with the proposed changes, CB's shard cost will probably be reduced down to 1 shard, as leaving it at a 2 shard cost results in a tremendous nerf.

Thoughts?

[Irian]

Almost definitely, I'd say. 2 shards for a gradual incremental resource sounds a tad silly, I think the class would overall feel too slow. I was actually under the assumption we'd be going back to "embers" being 1-per-cast. The reason Chaos Bolt costed 2 (and RoF 3) to begin with was to make Chaos Bolt still feel like a big rewarding cast...although funny how that worked out...

That being said, there's contextual stuff that matters a lot, like Soulsnatcher will likely receive a minor redesign to accommodate the less binary shard generation, or so I hope.

[Duckz0rs]

That being said, there's contextual stuff that matters a lot, like Soulsnatcher will likely receive a minor redesign to accommodate the less binary shard generation, or so I hope.

According to the post detailing the changes Soulsnatcher will stay the same, but be reduced to 3% chance to refund a Soul Shard per point. Soul Conduit will also stay the same but be reduced to 12% chance to refund a shard.

[Harsesis]

I think the thing to take out of the post is not the numbers presented but the mechanics changes. Those numbers can always be adjusted but it's how the class plays that needs to be the focus of PTR.

[Irian]

According to the post detailing the changes Soulsnatcher will stay the same, but be reduced to 3% chance to refund a Soul Shard per point. Soul Conduit will also stay the same but be reduced to 12% chance to refund a shard.

Oh jeeze, that's...not what I was hoping. Damn. Don't know how I missed that.

That's kind of annoying. I would have much rather they gone in the opposite direction and made it a higher chance to refund, say, half a shard.

[Livnthedream]

Oh jeeze, that's...not what I was hoping. Damn. Don't know how I missed that.

That's kind of annoying. I would have much rather they gone in the opposite direction and made it a higher chance to refund, say, half a shard.

Yeah, higher chance but smaller increments would be preferred. Though that is going to depend entirely on what/if number tuning we get.

[Lucrece]

It's going to be the new Fatal Echoes from affliction. Totally retarded RNG swinging parses wildly because it is a really powerful proc but so utterly rare.

[Wondercrab]

Any impact on tuning this has is a footnote compared to the huge playstyle improvement the changes will provide. I'll take a fun playstyle over high numbers any day. That being said, they should have plenty of beta time to feel it out. I very much suspect CB will only cost one shard just for the sake of making the spec feel good and more closely resemble its pre-Legion design.

[Deleted]

Any impact on tuning this has is a footnote compared to the huge playstyle improvement the changes will provide. I'll take a fun playstyle over high numbers any day. That being said, they should have plenty of beta time to feel it out. I very much suspect CB will only cost one shard just for the sake of making the spec feel good and more closely resemble its pre-Legion design.

How will it be a huge improvment in playstyle? The playstyle will be the exact same in terms of using the same spells and still having 0 mobility and/or spells to use while moving or spells to use on execute phase.

Im all for every single change this class can get, but its not even close to being an improvment of the playstyle.

[Deleted]

If you don't find consistency and less RNG a huge step-up, I honestly don't know what to tell you. This was a first great step imo, just hope they will take a second look at Reverse Entropy, Eradiction and the shard cost of offensive CD's.

[Deleted]

If you don't find consistency and less RNG a huge step-up, I honestly don't know what to tell you. This was a first great step imo, just hope they will take a second look at Reverse Entropy, Eradiction and the shard cost of offensive CD's.

i can tell you right now, the ember system will be a bad move. Destruction will be all about chainspamming incinerate again essentially making us turrets like demo/MG Affliction. Which considering how much they cut our mobility and not having old darksoul will be a lot worse than what we have right now. Also they raped havoc/wreak havoc.

[Deleted]

How is that any worse then spamming CB constantly? Only difference is, this time CB will actually feel impactful and rewarding. Havoc surely needs a lower CD, hope they make that happen.

[dangerfresh]

How is that any worse then spamming CB constantly? Only difference is, this time CB will actually feel impactful and rewarding. Havoc surely needs a lower CD, hope they make that happen.

I dont really understand this rationale that is constantly touted as one of the reasons behind these changes. RNG is lame, yes; but why not do these changes and reduce the shard cost of CB? Why does CB have to feel "really impactful and rewarding?" There is nothing special about spamming incinerate a bunch, which feels completely irrelevant, just to cast one Chaos Bolt that does slightly more damage than other classes' hard hitting spells. I dont feel rewarded for effort when I have to cast incinerate 10 times just to cast one Chaos Bolt to make up for the completely PITIFUL dps of incinerate. This whole mentality about making CB great again is ridiculous - people really just want Destruction to be great again.

One of the pitfalls of this spec in this expansion is the completely unrewarding and chaotic playstyle of our current shard generation - that should be and is the main focus of these changes on the PTR. I think a lot of people are happy to go to a manageable shard generation system because its something that they have control over, they can maximize their dps based on being aware of their shard generators, with buffs and procs to push them to the top. The problem is that this class is so utterly designed around RNG. Imagine spending 30seconds building up a Chaos Bolt, casting it with great procs, and then rolling sub 10% from mastery. Or building up a whopping 3 shards, casting an RoF and then the tank having to move due to a random mechanic. Incinerate being one of our main spells will make our RNG with Dimensional Ripper and Flame Rift an even bigger factor when parsing, maybe even on par with the MG/Fatal Echoes parses that people see now.

I am all for mechanics changes that help Destructions gameplay become manageable - being able to control your own shard generation is a great step in the right direction. However, its incredibly sad to see a write up like this when any single one of us can do two minutes of napkin math and realize that this is a monstrous nerf to the class in its current form. Essentially, we will be much more punished by movement, lose massive ST dps (napkin math, ofc this can change), and blizzard wants to nerf Wreak Havoc. I understand that numbers are subject to change, but why include any number changes in this discussion instead of saying "we want to increase the damage of Chaos Bolt." Anybody can do a simple bit of math and, realizing that while all of this could change, it is sad to see how Blizzard thinks this will fix Destro.

[Avikur]

I don't understand this whole chain spamming incinerate? It's not the only source of fragments, immolate ticks give you at least 1 fragment, conflagration gives you six and rifts give you 3, we're hardly going to be be spamming incinerate, that and various chances to get a full shard from artifice perks and legendaries, just wait and see how it plays before complaining!

Less RNG is a massive improvement imo. Not being balanced around wreak havoc is also a massive improvement

[Deleted]

Hey all!

While most of you are agreeing with the pending changes to the destruction resource system, the inner skeptic in me has me hesitant to accept these changes with open arms. I do not believe the proposed changes will be a buff... which prompted me to do some math! Below are links to data I've compiled based on my most recent Mythic Trilliax kill (math will be summarized below the links):

Actual Data: http://imgur.com/KGv1gi7
Formulas: http://imgur.com/38Gh8p1

With these changes, converting spells into the new proposed resource system I went from 94,150,000 CB Damage to 55,286,972.22 CB Damage. Then I decided to make calculations if CB were to cost 1 shard instead of 2 (as it is in its current form) and the numbers surprised me. CB Damage went from 94,150,000 to 110,573,944.44 with shard cost reduced to 1.

This leads me to believe that with the proposed changes, CB's shard cost will probably be reduced down to 1 shard, as leaving it at a 2 shard cost results in a tremendous nerf.

Thoughts?

My thought is that you didn't understand the blue post.
It has never been a matter of buffing or not the spec, but changing its core mechanisms to make it smoother.

Further adjustments (including numbers and shard costs) will come later on.

[Deleted]

I dont really understand this rationale that is constantly touted as one of the reasons behind these changes. RNG is lame, yes; but why not do these changes and reduce the shard cost of CB? Why does CB have to feel "really impactful and rewarding?" There is nothing special about spamming incinerate a bunch, which feels completely irrelevant, just to cast one Chaos Bolt that does slightly more damage than other classes' hard hitting spells. I dont feel rewarded for effort when I have to cast incinerate 10 times just to cast one Chaos Bolt to make up for the completely PITIFUL dps of incinerate. This whole mentality about making CB great again is ridiculous - people really just want Destruction to be great again.

I'd imagine the cost will be reduced to 1, just gotta wait and see what they got cooking. And when it comes to CB having to feel impactful and rewarding, I don't know - I loved how it played out at Legion launch; Not doing too much damage, it was more about applying Eradiction debuff, returning mana with RE. Kinda took me back to Cataclysm days and Soulfire debuff. But that's just me, most people whined about CB not dealing damage. Personally I disliked WoD CB spamfest, and Destro has slowly started drifting back to it due to increased secondary stats, tier bonuses and legendarys.

When it comes to numbers, prolly tweakin em after the changes hit live.

[Wondercrab]

How will it be a huge improvment in playstyle? The playstyle will be the exact same in terms of using the same spells and still having 0 mobility and/or spells to use while moving or spells to use on execute phase.

Im all for every single change this class can get, but its not even close to being an improvment of the playstyle.

There are a ton of problems that still need to be fixed for Destruction, but allowing resource generation to be more consistent rather than focusing on heavy RNG (along with making Incinerate feel far more important and rewarding to cast) is going to make the ebb and flow of Destruction a lot smoother. You'll still be using the same spells in a similar order, but you'll be much more able to pinpoint and plan ahead for your build/burn cycles rather than facing spikes of feast or famine when it comes to resource generation.

I think this is the problem the devs had when it came to designing Destruction in Legion. They put together a system that looked good on paper, because it involved essentially the same spell usage as before, but they didn't spare much consideration for how good this felt to actually play compared to what we had before. The consistency and ability to plan ahead with Destruction was a large part of what made it feel so smooth and enjoyable for a lot of people, and all of the RNG mechanics introduced into the spec clash horribly with its longstanding strengths.

There's a lot of work that still needs doing, but this is a big step in the right direction.

[Deleted]

Don't really understand either why people hail this change as the "Jesus is coming" moment to suddenly make Destro play more fluently...

Yes, it is a LITTLE less RNG and you're a LITTLE less likely to overcap shards, but you still have the other issues:
- Too many competing abilities, especially during the pull
- Maintenance buff that you are more or less forced into due to tuning
- Horrible immobility, especially out of fight - Whoever came up with the idea to make Burning Rush a talent, let alone a competing one with our defensives, clearly has not played the class/spec even for a day.
- No interrupt
- "Damage CDs" (if you can actually call them that) are a joke outside of the 10-minute one (which is more or less the only class with this long CD) and cost a shard

Only the re-design of shards will not save the spec. Too many silly abilities to juggle, too many good abilities pruned into (competing) talents.

I seriously hope that the redesign of the destruction lock will not end with this half-assed "Let's break down shards in to 10ths, and everything will be fine"

[impending doom]

Hey all!

While most of you are agreeing with the pending changes to the destruction resource system, the inner skeptic in me has me hesitant to accept these changes with open arms. I do not believe the proposed changes will be a buff... which prompted me to do some math! Below are links to data I've compiled based on my most recent Mythic Trilliax kill (math will be summarized below the links):

Actual Data: http://imgur.com/KGv1gi7
Formulas: http://imgur.com/38Gh8p1

With these changes, converting spells into the new proposed resource system I went from 94,150,000 CB Damage to 55,286,972.22 CB Damage. Then I decided to make calculations if CB were to cost 1 shard instead of 2 (as it is in its current form) and the numbers surprised me. CB Damage went from 94,150,000 to 110,573,944.44 with shard cost reduced to 1.

This leads me to believe that with the proposed changes, CB's shard cost will probably be reduced down to 1 shard, as leaving it at a 2 shard cost results in a tremendous nerf.

Thoughts?

I think the calculation is more complex. Because when we're casting CB less often, there will be time to cast almost twice as much incinerates than right now. That makes the total damage from incinerates twice as high and also increases shard fragments, which will compensate the missing total damage from CBs. And there's very likely going to be some number tuning still.

And I seriously doubt that the shard cost would be reduced to 1, that would give us insane burst with 6+ empowered CBs in a row.

[Vondem]

Very true. I thought of that as I was posting, obviously you'd be casting more filler spells. This would make up for that lost damage, but this further amplifies my point... those who were pushing for these changes could have screwed us.

I personally LOVE machine gunning CBs that hit for 1.2mil... and the potential of t19 2-set + t20 4-set we were about to be able to machine gun CBs that hit closer to 2mil. I enjoy how destro plays now that the gear is there for the competent players who have it available to them. With 3 immo crit relics and FoS I generate shards insanely fast.

Changes to Havoc are such a shame, as it is our only true strength.

I do not agree with the changes, but I guess it will ultimately make the spec less gear-dependent, which will appeal to a majority of the players.