Mythic Guldan Questions

[Emancptr]

You could be right looking at those logs. We certainly had problems with fixates whenever 2 night orbs were out on progression.

I don't have access to the logs anymore, but I remember a specific pull where the only damage to the Night Orb was from our mage who was supposed to soak it and the Night Orb still fixated on a healer. It got to the point where we intentionally had a tank pick up the 2nd one until the boss was down.

[KaPe]

The debuffs don't see to be mutually exclusive, but for us, it looked like the initial application of Barrage from the second orb messed up the first one. Roughly two casts go on second person on the threat table, after which it goes back to the initial target, with both orbs happily bombarding the same person.

It's not really a major issue, we can simply have healers spread out a bit so they won't nuke the raid in those grand total of five seconds, but it is pretty bizarre.

[Dracodraco]

You could be right looking at those logs. We certainly had problems with fixates whenever 2 night orbs were out on progression.

I don't have access to the logs anymore, but I remember a specific pull where the only damage to the Night Orb was from our mage who was supposed to soak it and the Night Orb still fixated on a healer. It got to the point where we intentionally had a tank pick up the 2nd one until the boss was down.

We never really had the issue, though the other kills with different mages seem to have 1-2 shots go off to either our tank or paladin healer occasionally, so there might be *something* to what KaPe is saying. Still odd that Lensi managed to fixate both on him, though... We also went in with the knowledge and strategy that a tank should taunt the newly spawned orb #2 and #4 before entering the zone, though, for safety concerns - so that might just be what I'm seeing. Either way, it's a raidwide 300K hit; Nothing really life threatening or major. It needs a full barrage during a flame crash to actually be significant, so it's not like you won't live getting splashed a few times as you enter/exit the orb. Generally, there's very few points where you want / "need" raid cds in the last phase; Off the top of my head:

-If a flame crash lines up with parasite debuffs, healers need to pay extra attention to those two. Doesn't warrant a raid CD.
-If demon#1 dies slowly, first flame crash may hurt a lot + parasites are up. Either CD, or kill quicker so tank can run out.
-Flame crash right before entering first night orb zone.

-Flame crash right after you kill demon #4. There's parasites up at the same time + a night orb ranged usually needs to help dmg, so this one is usually tight, even for a progressed guild, to the extent we were potting etc on it during progress. If the fourth demon dies slowly it means the tank can't run the flame crash out, meaning the entire raid is smacked hard right before you want to fill up 3x essences, which hurts a fair amount on their own. I'd deffo recommend CDing this part.


So, to recap, assuming your DPS aren't morons, you'd want a CD right before first night orb to stabilize the raid, and multiple CDs for the flame crash at 4th demon right before you enter the second zone. Commanding/Revival are ideal CDs to hold for the leap+parasite overlaps, if things look dicy, use it. A tranq/hymn/tide won't take effect quickly enough to save anyone.

[Deleted]

Did any of you have de-synch issues at the Gul'dan fight? We progressed last night into the end of phase 2 and then suddenly 3 of our raid completely de-synched (They saw themselves at completely different positions than where the rest of the raid saw them, couldn't break bonds any more, etc.)

They tried relogging, complete game restart, leaving raid group & rejoining, teleporting out and back again. Nothing worked, they stayed de-synched until they did a soft-reset (15 min logged out).

Any tips on
- how to avoid this?
- how to fix this once it happens?

[Deleted]

Did any of you have de-synch issues at the Gul'dan fight? We progressed last night into the end of phase 2 and then suddenly 3 of our raid completely de-synched (They saw themselves at completely different positions than where the rest of the raid saw them, couldn't break bonds any more, etc.)

They tried relogging, complete game restart, leaving raid group & rejoining, teleporting out and back again. Nothing worked, they stayed de-synched until they did a soft-reset (15 min logged out).

Any tips on
- how to avoid this?
- how to fix this once it happens?

We have the same thing in our raid-group. Best way to fix it is to relog to an alt, and then straight back again. It's easily noticable if you just pop a feast, cause the people who can't eat from it are de-synched.

[Drish]

The de-syncing happens to me when I complete the azsuna invasion scenario as well.

If you need to wipe just stack on the boss, something will eventually kill the entire raid. We had issues with people randomly de-syncing until we started doing that.

[Sonqopura]

To anyone who can help we go consistently to phase 3, but the Soulsever ability pretty much kills the tank. We have a Paladin MT, and a DH off tanking, due to his mobility for the big aoe crap. The problem is that once the pala gets the Soulsever ability on him, he drops to 10% from full HP with active mitigations and when the soul is returned to him we do not have the time heal it up, which caused us to wipe multiple times. For information, the soul is returned to him 3-4 seconds after which is normal from most videos I have seen. Is there something we are missing, or is it just bad tank composition for Gul'dan?

[Steeberino]

In our guild we have our blood DK take the initial hit of the soul sever and I (brewmaster) taunt during the cast so that I have aggro immediately after. Blood DK then runs over to bait the leap and returns to taunt a few seconds before the next sever. Meanwhile I tank the add and the boss until he returns. This strat leaves a reasonable amount of time between the sever and the leap where the tank with the healing debuff is taking no other damage after soul sever for the rogue / DH to pick up the soul fragment and the healers to remove the absorb before the flame crash.

This strat is very slightly more complicated than just face tanking the sever and the boss, but it's infinitely safer for your tanks, particularly if you don't have a guardian druid or you're consistently having a problem with your tank living through soul severs.

The major upside of this strat is it should work with any tank composition, and any class should be able to take the sever + crash combo when they aren't being hit by the boss at all when they have the heal absorb.

[dethkrik]

Did any of you have de-synch issues at the Gul'dan fight? We progressed last night into the end of phase 2 and then suddenly 3 of our raid completely de-synched (They saw themselves at completely different positions than where the rest of the raid saw them, couldn't break bonds any more, etc.)

They tried relogging, complete game restart, leaving raid group & rejoining, teleporting out and back again. Nothing worked, they stayed de-synched until they did a soft-reset (15 min logged out).

Any tips on
- how to avoid this?
- how to fix this once it happens?

We found that hearthing and relogging would fix it. Then we'd summon back. Had it happen multiple times the first couple nights we were progressing and eventually just decided that we'd avoid falling/jumping off if at all possible, as that seemed to be the root cause. Since we made that rule we've only had it happen 1-2 times when someone accidentally got knocked off.

[Squishei]

To anyone who can help we go consistently to phase 3, but the Soulsever ability pretty much kills the tank. We have a Paladin MT, and a DH off tanking, due to his mobility for the big aoe crap. The problem is that once the pala gets the Soulsever ability on him, he drops to 10% from full HP with active mitigations and when the soul is returned to him we do not have the time heal it up, which caused us to wipe multiple times. For information, the soul is returned to him 3-4 seconds after which is normal from most videos I have seen. Is there something we are missing, or is it just bad tank composition for Gul'dan?

There should be no way that a paladin tank drops from 100% to 0% with appropriate active mit and cooldowns in a single soul sever. Without logs, or knowing talents/ trinkets, or other things going wrong (slow soaker).

[Deleted]

To anyone who can help we go consistently to phase 3, but the Soulsever ability pretty much kills the tank. We have a Paladin MT, and a DH off tanking, due to his mobility for the big aoe crap. The problem is that once the pala gets the Soulsever ability on him, he drops to 10% from full HP with active mitigations and when the soul is returned to him we do not have the time heal it up, which caused us to wipe multiple times. For information, the soul is returned to him 3-4 seconds after which is normal from most videos I have seen. Is there something we are missing, or is it just bad tank composition for Gul'dan?

We don't tank swap in P3, keep in mind I play a guardian, so I have a much larger health pool and very strong physical mitigation. To extend your health you can use shield trinkets (I run both the Gul'dan and the Arcway one). So using a shield before Soulsever or right after your soul is picked up, you can live through them rotating small CD's and when the shields are down you use major ones. If you have a disc priest in your raid, note that shields circumvent the heal absorb and can be used to keep the tank alive while the other healers focus on removing the heal absorb, so this might be the first fight this expac were Clarity of Will actually has a purpose.

It obviously is a little different for a palli, but using his stuff properly should get him through.

[Nitros14]

In our guild we have our blood DK take the initial hit of the soul sever and I (brewmaster) taunt during the cast so that I have aggro immediately after. Blood DK then runs over to bait the leap and returns to taunt a few seconds before the next sever. Meanwhile I tank the add and the boss until he returns. This strat leaves a reasonable amount of time between the sever and the leap where the tank with the healing debuff is taking no other damage after soul sever for the rogue / DH to pick up the soul fragment and the healers to remove the absorb before the flame crash.

This strat is very slightly more complicated than just face tanking the sever and the boss, but it's infinitely safer for your tanks, particularly if you don't have a guardian druid or you're consistently having a problem with your tank living through soul severs.

The major upside of this strat is it should work with any tank composition, and any class should be able to take the sever + crash combo when they aren't being hit by the boss at all when they have the heal absorb.

Hey thanks for this tanking strategy, we got super close tonight with it and it simplified everything about tanking a lot.

So close it kills me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEAofiFJHoc This is close right, does anyone actually wipe after the second visions? Please tell me it's close.

[Deleted]

We wiped two or 3 times after the second visions. Once because the rogue was sleeping ad not picking up the tank soul and it just got out of control from there, once to parasites getting out of control and us only getting the boss to 0.3% before the third visions. So yeah if you can reach that you will almost certainly kill it soon. It usually is just nerves and people being so hyped that they forget how to play the game that actually kills you once you get there. Just keep calm and you win.

[Sarevokcz]

Hey thanks for this tanking strategy, we got super close tonight with it and it simplified everything about tanking a lot.

So close it kills me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEAofiFJHoc This is close right, does anyone actually wipe after the second visions? Please tell me it's close.

we wiped three times after the second visions, once to half the raid being dead as barely didnt manage to to orb and essences properly and too much hype and not enough focus on mechanics and CCs the other times, but yeah, after that, its pretty easy

[Dracodraco]

Hey thanks for this tanking strategy, we got super close tonight with it and it simplified everything about tanking a lot.

So close it kills me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEAofiFJHoc This is close right, does anyone actually wipe after the second visions? Please tell me it's close.

That's a pretty standard wipe for any guild that hasn't gotten to that part yet. Most tend to underestimate how much damage that third nightorb actually needs to take; Looked to me like your ranged wasn't switching to it at all. After the nerfs to P1 and P2 of guldan, that's the most damage-intensive part of the fight, and considering anything afterwards is 100% irrelevant because you CC the demons and just deal with tank mechanics+parasites, your DPS should be popping CDS to get through it. To clarify, at that point in time -

A night orb is up that all ranged should aim to hit for atleast the first 10 seconds, before it gets a 50% damage reduction aura up. Some probably want to hit it for longer.

An add is up that becomes increasingly harder to deal with by virtue of a damage stacking ability. This is what melee should be focusing.

Parasites, which the melee needs to switch off of the big add to deal with.

3x targets that are all max priority all at once; Really, this is where your pots/dps cds should be used if they're available, but I'd assume most of your DPS are holding the CDS because "lol boss gun take 150% damage after orbs, lets do deeeeepz".

(oh, and as a bonus, if you fail to kill the big add super quickly, it'll either be out of position, or you'll get hit by a huge raidwide hit from the tank, as a flame crash comes during all of this; Max focus on big add ensures tank can get away to a safe distance, but for a first kill, I'd assign a raid CD or two here to deal with it).

[Xinder]

What's a realistic amount of raid hours that it would take to kill Gul'dan before Tomb releases? My guild has 18hrs left of raiding before Tomb releases and we haven't done a pull on Gul'dan yet. Should we just cut our loss of getting cutting edge and relax before tomb or is it realistic to get in 18hrs of raiding. What if we got everyone to agree to one more raid night in the week before tomb for a total of 21 hrs. Does that change anything?

[eschatological]

So, is there a reason we have 4 parasites per spawn? I was under the impression you should only get 2 per cast? Is the tooltip just worded badly?

It's not really a problem, except sometimes it is because one is late to die or something.

[Squishei]

Each debuff spawns two parasites that focus the same ranged/healer. 2 debuffs per wave = 4 parasites every 30 seconds.

[KaPe]

What's a realistic amount of raid hours that it would take to kill Gul'dan before Tomb releases? My guild has 18hrs left of raiding before Tomb releases and we haven't done a pull on Gul'dan yet. Should we just cut our loss of getting cutting edge and relax before tomb or is it realistic to get in 18hrs of raiding. What if we got everyone to agree to one more raid night in the week before tomb for a total of 21 hrs. Does that change anything?

It's hard to say. It's might seem like a decent amount of time, but it's also a fairly long fight. If you have enough DPS to skip the second add in phase one, you'll shave quite a bit off time, both in learning the hard parts of that phase and by simply making it shorter. If not... well, I don't know. You're looking at an extra minute - maybe slightly less - for each decent pull and it will add up quickly. Not to mention that it can mean even longer phase 2, which also introduces another difficult part and even longer fight.

It might be doable - assuming, of course, that you have a tank capable of soloing Scythes, rogues to soak souls, mage/warlock who knows his stuff and won't wipe you in phase three and you won't change your roster too much across all those hours. You could check some logs for a rough boss % indication in phase one, see if you have the dps to do it <3 minutes and go from there.

If not, progression will be far more problematic and you'd be cutting it pretty close.

[Marrilaife]

It might be doable - assuming, of course, that you have a tank capable of soloing Scythes,

You don't need to solo scythes anymore, it might be easier on some tanks, but in some setups it's better to just trigger it before bonds / storm to reduce the chance of misplay and tank getting 1-shot.

If you have tank classes like warrior or dh it's probably better to trigger it and then cover the buffed boss state with active mitigation, because these tanks are not as good at dealing with massive magic damage (scythe is like 13,7 mil fire damage) but are better at mitigating physical damage with their active mitigation.

I was checking a vid from a german guild that used pala / warrior (because I was looking up pala pov vids) and I'm pretty sure they were triggering the scythe in p2 between harvest and storm (pala was soaking souls, warr was tanking the boss). The guild is ranked world 126 so I'd assume they know what they're doing and it was more optimal for them this way. And it was before Gul'dan HP nerfs.

BTW, a question, my guild is using hero in p1 to skip fel lord (we tried without and we could kill the fel lord, but it meant more bonds so more chance someone will be off position and die from them), but we're often wiping to the eye in p2 that spawns after second storm even with melee dps taunting it, anyone has advice how to deal with that with no hero?