1. #1

    my 887 alt arcane mage simming more dps than 895 ret pally main

    Cliffs:

    Mage is 887 barely 10 days played 3 traits behind but has shard and belt arcane legendary.
    Ret Pally is 2nd spec (main prot)/ 40 traits sephuz + pyrdaz for legendaries .

    for Krosus fight on ask mr robot sims my arcane mage is simming like 600k+ and my ret pally simming 535k..
    feels bad man.

    Are ret pallies super gear dependant and its rough to have a prot main set? I juggle more haste gear even tho i have around 30% haste/28% crit as ret

  2. #2
    Sim-wise, arcane is anyway lower than retri. Either you are doing something wrong with the sims, or you have really terrible gear with your pally. What about AP?

  3. #3
    On a pure ST fight like krosus I could see this being the case. But on any other fight, other than maybe also Star Augur, your ret should be ahead or else you're doing something wrong.
    "A wise king never seeks war, but is always prepared for it. A strong king never gives into fear, but provides courage and strength to his subjects. For the truest victory, is stirring the hearts of your people."

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jkalz7 View Post
    On a pure ST fight like krosus I could see this being the case. But on any other fight, other than maybe also Star Augur, your ret should be ahead or else you're doing something wrong.
    ok thanks for the info!

  5. #5
    I dunno about your mage legendaries, but Sephuz+Prydaz isn't a great legendary combo. Cloak is BIS imo. Chain probably was BIS when it was 20%, though. I regularly run with Cloak+Prydaz or Cloak+Chain and it's pretty awesome.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    I dunno about your mage legendaries, but Sephuz+Prydaz isn't a great legendary combo. Cloak is BIS imo. Chain probably was BIS when it was 20%, though. I regularly run with Cloak+Prydaz or Cloak+Chain and it's pretty awesome.
    yeah I've got 6 total legendaries and play all 3 specs so its kind of how it just came about :/ . Those are the best i have for ret sadly even though they are like #5 and #6 in terms of value or something.

  7. #7
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    The difference in dps here seems about right when comparing any 2 specs with this difference in gear. You have decent dps legendaries for arcane, you have some of the worst for ret. That being said, I don't know how accurate sims are for arcane mage, whereas sims for ret are one of the more reliable ones (but you still need to know what youre reading)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    I dunno about your mage legendaries, but Sephuz+Prydaz isn't a great legendary combo. Cloak is BIS imo. Chain probably was BIS when it was 20%, though. I regularly run with Cloak+Prydaz or Cloak+Chain and it's pretty awesome.
    Chain is still best in slot, cloak, ring, and shoulders compete with eachother but generally cloak wins when combined with chain

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinew View Post
    The difference in dps here seems about right when comparing any 2 specs with this difference in gear. You have decent dps legendaries for arcane, you have some of the worst for ret. That being said, I don't know how accurate sims are for arcane mage, whereas sims for ret are one of the more reliable ones (but you still need to know what youre reading)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Chain is still best in slot, cloak, ring, and shoulders compete with eachother but generally cloak wins when combined with chain
    Cloak and belt are almost equally good with ring and shoulders being a bit below them.

    Ring might edge out cloak if and only if the 2 piece t19 and 4 piece t20 combo ends up being good enough in ToS but since we don't even know what ilevel ToS gear will be yet it is pure speculation for now.

    Also if you have belt ring beats shoulders

  9. #9
    Belt is Bis over cloak. Belt is always 6-7% extra dps while cloak is 5% if u have 100% uptime which won't happen

  10. #10
    If you sim ST then Ret is not that good atm, Blizz is clearly making Ret an AOE/Cleave melee which is pretty evident from our new golden trait. Our pure ST is pretty shit when compared to other melee specs atm, but our cleave is nuts mostly due to its availability.

    Arcane has a super strong ST build especially once you start hitting higher gear. You should expect arcane ST to do well especially when you get some decent gear.

    Ret is not meant to be a bulldozer melee spec, thats what Havoc is and it's getting nerfed so be glad. Ret is a decent cleave/aoe melee class with unique paladin utility. If we were ever top dps (like you know, week 1 of NH) we'd get nerfed because having the utility and aoe that we do being top of ST would mean we were imba AF.

    Embrace your new destiny as king of council fights and M+, and remember that when your shitty raid members die you get that sweet flavor buff. Ret is actually strong AF just not ST.

  11. #11
    Belt is Bis over cloak. Belt is always 6-7% extra dps while cloak is 5% if u have 100% uptime which won't happen
    Belt is rather 4-6% (maybe up to 7% on 2:30min fights) depending on Crusade uptime. Cloak with a realistic uptime is about ~4%. Doesn't change the initial statement tho, Belt > Cloak is correct.

    On the topic: This seems very odd. Ret isn't very good on ST but even with the difference in legies I wouldn't expect your mage to sim that much better.
    Also 535k seems low for 895. Which fight length did you sim?
    Furthermore I don't really trust AMR to be accurate, personally I'd suggest downloading simcraft and using it (another possibility would be https://raidbots.com/simbot, as it uses current simcraft builds. But I highly suggest getting used to do sims by yourself).

  12. #12
    @Socce - do you have an example of something not being accurate on AMR? We do a ton of testing to make sure it's accurate and compare to logs of the top players as a source of independent verification, but if something slipped through, let me know. I'm still combing through logs for 7.2 on different bosses (I go through thousands of logs, it's an ongoing process throughout the tier).
    @Brewhan - For the record, you picked the two extreme cases in simulations!! Ha.

    Both SimC and AMR sim high for mages, when comparing to actual logs. On AMR, all other classes' top players WCL logs match our sims. But for mages, only the top handful of players match the sims. We've gone over, and over, and over it looking for any bugs and haven't found any. We worked with the SimC mage folks too (since SimC's patchwerk sims match our Target Dummy sims, meaning if we have a bug, they must have it too). None of us found anything, and we think it just has to mages being more sensitive to a slower human reaction time.

    Retribution paladins sim a bit lower because the sims don't have you getting the Retribution buff from player deaths. You can add that in with some quick math, however. Look at a log, go to the buffs tab and see how long you had the retribution buff up. Let's say it was a 10% uptime. Multiply that by 0.2 (for the 20% damage increase). In this case, 10 * .2 is 2. So you could increase the simulator's DPS by 2%.

    I posted comparison numbers right before 7.2 came out. If you look at the mage section, you can see the results, and notes on mages and retribution paladins: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/krosus-si...l-combat-logs/

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Talvindius View Post
    If you sim ST then Ret is not that good atm, Blizz is clearly making Ret an AOE/Cleave melee which is pretty evident from our new golden trait. Our pure ST is pretty shit when compared to other melee specs atm, but our cleave is nuts mostly due to its availability.

    Arcane has a super strong ST build especially once you start hitting higher gear. You should expect arcane ST to do well especially when you get some decent gear.

    Ret is not meant to be a bulldozer melee spec, thats what Havoc is and it's getting nerfed so be glad. Ret is a decent cleave/aoe melee class with unique paladin utility. If we were ever top dps (like you know, week 1 of NH) we'd get nerfed because having the utility and aoe that we do being top of ST would mean we were imba AF.

    Embrace your new destiny as king of council fights and M+, and remember that when your shitty raid members die you get that sweet flavor buff. Ret is actually strong AF just not ST.
    very good explanation of all things considered thanks!
    @Zoopercat I use AMR almost daily and sim my characters since I have about 6 alts all above 880 ish that I like to rotate and play. My paladin in this case is main prot but off spec ret and im saddened by his vast simmed output dps but in raids and such I do well but I understand now that is because 99% of the time im cleaving mini adds that I don't even notice so it boosts me higher. I also ask if you could consider looking into the best in bag feature on affliction warlock its very wrong since I have 905+ ilvl in bags and 4 piece but its asking me to replace my whispers/metronome for a stat stick mastery instead.. and also dropping my 4 piece just to have a boosted higher ilvl.

    I think for those paying a premium feature that is pretty lame how wrong it is. I've been a premium member since legion launched roughly and kind of disappointed with that. I do use the upgrade finder feature just for focus areas of which dungeon priority to run or raid to bonus roll on.. It works most of the time in that area .
    Last edited by Brewhan; 2017-04-22 at 06:33 PM.

  14. #14
    @Brewhan - are you using a custom gearing strat for your warlock, or the defaults? The default is based on one character setup, just like weights from guides. A custom setup (they take about an hour to run), is totally customized to you. Those 'gearing strats' not only give you stat weights but sim every single item with a proc, and bundles that info with the stat weight report, so it can rank trinkets, etc, based off sim data.

    If you haven't run a custom setup yet, give it a try, here's a guide: http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

    Also, if you post your warlock's best in bags string here, on forums.askmrrobot.com or in a PM, I can run the custom setup for you and review the results.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    @Brewhan - are you using a custom gearing strat for your warlock, or the defaults? The default is based on one character setup, just like weights from guides. A custom setup (they take about an hour to run), is totally customized to you. Those 'gearing strats' not only give you stat weights but sim every single item with a proc, and bundles that info with the stat weight report, so it can rank trinkets, etc, based off sim data.

    If you haven't run a custom setup yet, give it a try, here's a guide: http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

    Also, if you post your warlock's best in bags string here, on forums.askmrrobot.com or in a PM, I can run the custom setup for you and review the results.
    I'm just using the default AMR it says (Ursoc H) stat weights. here is my string code. I will save that link for other characters as well thanks for it.

    $50;US;Lightbringer;Poliswag;Raze;3;1;110;10:787,15:37,12:13,13:1,14:16,4:794;1;.s1;31;311 2213;915,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,70,354,37,211,1,1,108;3,3,3,3,3,4,4,3,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 ,1,1,4,1,1,1;137549b1537b3416b3528,147754b1487b3336b3572,140823b1497b3336b3517;.s2;32;3211 232;1170,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,169;1,3,3,3,2,3,3,3,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1;143531b1472b3454, 137492b1522b3336b3416,143687b1517b3337b3473;.s3;33;1312221;803,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 ,1,537,37,321;1,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1;142182b1472b3453,137492b1527b3337b3417 ,143687b1527b3336b3394;.q1;128942s16b747x137549y10205z-6931;3436s12b2712b71x-10575e5429;1301s11b-1973b1780b78e0;715s7b-1848b241b1529b81x-26;2917s2b-1881b1799b78e461;1000s10b-1927b2029b12;3s1b-2046b1854b178;6s5b-2022b1844b180;3s3b-2029b2029b12e-7;807s9b-1961b1770b81;1662s13b-1936b1855b106;17s14b-1966b336b1702;40s6b-2023b1844b108;65s8b-3404b1462b1835b178;3450s15b-1704b1718b1e-447;.q2;128943s17b748x143531y-6039z6195;3450s3b2707b3;63s6b-3b3;1968s1b-1926b1804b173;116s11b-1972b1800b172e5429;2706s16;1065s10b-3468b1431b341b1701;6s7b-2042b341b1701;3s5b-2057b2063;53s15b-3479b1446b326b1703;2427s14b-2014b1835b179;50s9b-2044b341b1701;46s12b-2037b1859b178e0;2s2b-2032b331b1631e461;16s8b-3404b1462b1835b178;1252s13b-2043b1982;.q3;128941s16b749x142182y-4690z1761;3434s15b1062b1644b3e5436;81s6b-1647b1644b3;2084s11b-1921b1800b172e-7;2962s1b-1977b276b1529b81x-9031;809s10b-3377b1431b341b1701;6s7b-2042b341b1701;3s5b-2057b2063;3s3b-2048b336b5b1701x0e454;807s9b-1947b1770b81;1662s13b-1936b1855b106;17s14b-1966b336b1702;87s12b-2038b1859b178e-454;2s2b-2032b331b1631e461;16s8b-3404b1462b1835b178;.r;_;.inv;5512;706;730;10255;4638;0;0;0;0;0;4203;1;0;3710;483;0;3054;76 2;791;1853f41;1004;3;158;417;402;0;0;0;0;672;2072;4259;249;3781;3003;925;800;16710;1835;12 60;1;3;8189;6;4122;830;2483;3521;890;1274;289u465;2123;6;634;1127u26;2019;481u14x76681e528 1;2160x0y0e-839;3851;861;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;1;0;0;0;0;0;0;5;0;1;1;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;1;1;1;26;538;0;0;0;867;49;6 36;311;1;0;0;0;109;666;45;884;1;1;1;324;93;116;1;1;1;1;1;1;1128;11;359;201;2;4;295;250;64; 151;147;940b573;0b0;760;461;0;56;0;90;571;964;688;1645;0;0;4;0;1511;5;1;6;1;1;1;1;0;0;3;0; 1;312;0;0;0;0;1;1;1;2;0;2562;33;0;0;331;313;155;3;1;7;660;3;100;331b176x65501y-4690z6195;2b-1x-156y-6039z6195;235;1038;19b-147b69b19b1085x-13467e997;1955;9;1;4;14;157b37b1644e-3;18b-1644b1644;63b-1644b1644;1101;9;1;0;0;0;0;0;0;8;32;72b-1923b1805b81e-7;293;287b-1876b1795b81;45v110b-3377b1771;92b-245b1770b81;25b-1886b1805b81;3b-1886b1804b173;63b-1992b296b1605e0;37b-1861b1780b81;16b-1881b1800b172e0;2766b-1987b1815b76;43b-1881b1804b173;153b-1977b276b1529b81x2;34b-1881b1880b111;106;39;295;135;113b-3487b1446b320b1b1529x-2;87b-3296b1431b341b1701;3b-3474b1417b2063;3b-2048b341b1701;3b-2027b2029b12;0b-2071b2063;3b-2048b341b1701e454;50b-3473b1446b326b1703;0b-2034b1854b178e-447;37;2;369;34;219;289b-2027b318;159;0;282b1577b4;1b-5b5;1b-4b3;1b-2b3;2b-2b2;1b-4b3;22;0;3;6;7;3;2;0;1;2;0;39;37;17;283;35;344;1;0;3;6;0;1;5;144;14;53b-1898b2029b12;2b-2026b1835b179;48b-2034b1855b106;39b-3401b1435b1859b178;1b-2027b1849b108;8b-1967b1859b178e-7;2b-2032b331b1631e461;1b-1967b1859b178e0;1b-2027b326b1703e0;10b-2044b341b1701e-454;1b-2032b1854b178;11;90;1;311;27;65b-2027b321b1529b129x2e447;30;159;13v-7b-2699;34;465;30b725b1845b115;19b-1980b1982;41b-1982b1981e-444;90b-1981b1982;38;1;124;1153;0;0;48;658;1805;5;779;6;434;1;417b-1962b316b1528b236$
    Last edited by Brewhan; 2017-04-22 at 08:06 PM.

  16. #16
    That explains it - yeah, using defaults aren't customized to your character, it's just a starting point. I'll queue up a custom set here for you on my machine. I have a few others in queue first, but it shouldn't take too long. Check back in a bit!

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Brewhan - here is a custom setup, I don't know if it has all of the settings you'd normally use, I had to guess. You can always run another. I used prolonged power, an augment rune, and a 300 second krosus fight.

    Click on this link: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...f80eeb6f38ea24

    Then click the green 'save and use' button. After you save it, you can select it in the dropdown menu on the gear optimization page. Doing that picks the better trinkets for you (which happen to be the ones you have equipped), and it is NOT replacing them with a stat stick.

    If you haven't been using custom strategies for your other characters, definitely do that, you'll really like the customized results I think

  17. #17
    @Zoopercat WOW that is great and it brings a whole new level to AMR I never knew about this im a big newb. I will start trying custom strategies for all my other characters as well thank you so much for doing this have a great day! =) .

  18. #18
    Of course - hit me up if you have questions about the guide. Oh, and use the 'V2 Beta Strategy' in the 'sim type' menu instead of the regular 'gearing strategy.' It's our update and testing looks solid. It's faster!

    Also since these can take an hour to run, I often do them before I eat dinner (so they run while I eat), or overnight. You can queue up a bunch, one for each character, and they will run while you sleep.

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