Is anyone expecting sylvanas to eventually do something evil.

[Mehrunes]

What a great case of selective thinking. Yes, enslavement and kidnapping are the same thing

What is this supposed to prove, exactly? @Chickat neither denied Sylvanas' behavior towards Eyir, nor did they claim enslaving and kidnapping is not the same.

Because Paladins generally don't go around murdering random people, while the forsaken kidnap and experiment on people regularly.

It's a very, very safe assumption.

Random people. Undead. Add in his potential mind state after he learned Nathanos was the monster he was chasing and his political affiliation. Also, WoW had an entire faction of Paladins going around and murdering random people. And Argent Crusade has a more zealous subfaction of Brotherhood of the Light that was sympathizing with the Scarlet Crusade at some point.

Vol'jin was burned in the funeral pyre... kind of hard to resurrect ashes..

You can always put his spirit in a tiki mask.

Technically is was HIS land, it belonged to his family before the scourge attacked, it's still his land after.

Belonged to his family (Nathanos in specific). Belonged to him. Lel, what's the difference. Just because Nathanos took Stephon into his home for whatever reason (potentially orphan status) does not give him any right to Nathanos' home.

It would still be Nathanos's house first wouldn't it?

"First" implies a 9-year old cousin of Nathanos' had partial ownership of Nathanos' house for some reason. Which seams somewhat unlikely.

They both lived there, it belongs to both of them, it is regardless, still his.

That's not how ownership works.

i mean she tried mass genocide in gilneas.

When and how?

It's ok to use Chemical Weapons if you start losing a war you started!

She didn't start the war.

not quite sure what you mean by alliance wmd's unless you just mean magic in general nothing comes to mind that the alliance has that is on par with the plague.

Gnomeregan has been irradiated because of a radiation bomb Gnomes built. There's also the bigass bomb on some of their airships.

oh you mean useing Plague womens on Innocent? Gilneas... and Southpaw, even if we say anderhall was not contested battleground, where all civilians are gone. Still used Plague womens there.. Or sacrifised Humans for blood ritual for "Dark Mirror"

I mean, if we say all civilians were gone from Andorhal, what difference does it make if the combatants hit by Blight there (not that Blight was used at Andorhal, but whatever) were women or not?

tried to enslave Valkyr.

Unconfirmed.

tried to, or made a deal with Helya which is a villain so what does that make sylvanas?

And? At that point in time Helya was no one to the playable factions.

Oh yeah, improsined and tortured Koltira Deathweaver, because He did not want to use Plague weapons on a Force that was retreating.

Again, no Blight was used at Andorhal. Koltira wasn't even in command at the end when Alliance was retreating. Koltira was imprisoned for treason., for making a deal with Alliance leader. That cost Forsaken lives when Alliance broke it. Any torture has not been confirmed.

i mean its still kinda her fault for trying to kill her self instead of governing her people.

How would Sylvanas' presence affect Horde's Warchief starting a war? Didn't do much to stop Garrosh attacking Theramore. Sylvanas was potentially aware of Gilneas campaign being planned before she left to Icecrown. When Val'kyr showed her visions of the Gilneas campaign, she only realized it's not things happening right now when the vision changed from the battle at the Greymane Wall to Alliance progression on Bulwark.

[pateuvasiliu]

She's been doing evil things ever since she was reanimated dude.

[Mehrunes]

There wasn't even a valid point to attack Gilneas to begin with. Has she ever tried to build up diplomatic relationships with humanity if Garrosh really threatens her? Because outside of Soutshore, where we don't have any proves who started the aggression and which is only one little town that in some way endangered the whole Forsaken, there wasn't that much of aggressions from the Human Side. Nothing that would indicate that the Humans of the Alliance are all for slaughter every undead, they have proven themselves to be rather accepting of undead Members.

I mean, even ignoring things like other clashes with humans and the fact that by the time of Invasion of Gilneas the Alliance-Horde war has already began, given how Sylvanas sent envoys all over the world after she created her kingdom back in W3, yeah, she most likely has tried building up diplomatic relationships with the Alliance. And for some reason, she joined the Horde even though she thought lowly of it and didn't like Orcs. Also, if you want to argue from the point of relationships with not the Alliance but humanity in general, one of the biggest threat to them in their early years was the Scarlet Crusade.

the closest shes ever come to being diplomatic is when she came up with the idea to murder her sister and her kids so they could live in undercity.

And Forsaken are in the Horde only because Horde book-keeper made a mistake in the census once and no one bothered to fix it since then. Same applies to Blood Elves. Hell, even going back, the Forsaken rallied behind her because each of them tossed a coin to decide and they all flipped the same side. The non-Forsaken that helped them during the Civil War in the Plaguelands just happened to be there in the Forsaken-Scourge battles and didn't attack the Forsaken by accident. Plus, as per the post by @Venziir/@Zulkhan, Alliance isn't exactly pristine when it comes to diplomatic solutions when dealing with the Forsaken.

That was her charges yes... but was because he hesitated to Plague the retreating alliance forces, and so yes, he did not plague thassarian, but not really worked with, Nor even beside.

They literally meet with each other and make a secret pact.

They never where close to Loosing it, he did not let them Regroup he did not fire on retreating people...

Except for the part where Alliance suddenly breaks the ceasefire and kills a ton of Forsaken which forced Sylvanas to intervene herself and bring reinforcements.

Well, they're earned.

Gosh, stop validating each other in this TEH CIRCLEJERK.

There is an added element though. Raining meteors on your enemies does not render the land infertile for decades without the concentrated efforts of druids and shaman. Using the plague in any of its forms does. This is the critical issue with the forsaken. Even if you come to terms with the problem the Forsaken create in economics (since by removing death they absolutely upend the basic economics of inheritance which are crucial not just in medieval but also in modern finance) the Forsaken largely destroy land resources around them instead of working them and trading the produce. While they may be a necessary evil because we are constantly at war, in times of peace the Forsaken can never have long term peace with their neighbors because they lack an agricultural industry which is critical in a medieval economy. It also makes very little sense that the Forsaken are so expansionist considering they do not NEED land to feed themselves.

Yeah, no. The only confirmed case of Blight having such an effect is Southshore and the strain used there was stronger than the Forsaken thought it was. Given how there are no living in Forsaken Lordaeron and how Forsaken are still subject to true death, inheritance can work just fine. Even if it didn't, this tangent is irrelevant from the perspective of evilness. And given how they don't need agriculture, how is agriculture supposed to be critical for their economy? And Forsaken are expansionist because they want the protection of the natural borders. Also, pretty much every other nation on the continent has already collapsed, so they are simply filling the vacuum.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, even ignoring things like other clashes with humans and the fact that by the time of Invasion of Gilneas the Alliance-Horde war has already began, given how Sylvanas sent envoys all over the world after she created her kingdom back in W3, yeah, she most likely has tried building up diplomatic relationships with the Alliance. And for some reason, she joined the Horde even though she thought lowly of it and didn't like Orcs. Also, if you want to argue from the point of relationships with not the Alliance but humanity in general, one of the biggest threat to them in their early years was the Scarlet Crusade.




And Forsaken are in the Horde only because Horde book-keeper made a mistake in the census once and no one bothered to fix it since then. Same applies to Blood Elves. Hell, even going back, the Forsaken rallied behind her because each of them tossed a coin to decide and they all flipped the same side. The non-Forsaken that helped them during the Civil War in the Plaguelands just happened to be there in the Forsaken-Scourge battles and didn't attack the Forsaken by accident. Plus, as per the post by @Venziir/@Zulkhan, Alliance isn't exactly pristine when it comes to diplomatic solutions when dealing with the Forsaken.




They literally meet with each other and make a secret pact.




Except for the part where Alliance suddenly breaks the ceasefire and kills a ton of Forsaken which forced Sylvanas to intervene herself and bring reinforcements.




Gosh, stop validating each other in this TEH CIRCLEJERK.




Yeah, no. The only confirmed case of Blight having such an effect is Southshore and the strain used there was stronger than the Forsaken thought it was. Given how there are no living in Forsaken Lordaeron and how Forsaken are still subject to true death, inheritance can work just fine. Even if it didn't, this tangent is irrelevant from the perspective of evilness. And given how they don't need agriculture, how is agriculture supposed to be critical for their economy? And Forsaken are expansionist because they want the protection of the natural borders. Also, pretty much every other nation on the continent has already collapsed, so they are simply filling the vacuum.

gosh mass replying like that is annoying. any way she tried to genocide gilanes when the horde attacked it and she started gasing the place. and as far as i can remember the alliance more or less leaves the forsaken alone, with south shore gone i don't think they have really pushed into forsaken land at all other then the small force at hillsbrad and that isn't forsaken land. the plague lands still had scourge and other stuff in it and isn't forsaken land. i could be wrong but i'm pretty sure all the furrys in silver pine were working on there own and not with the alliance as you see no alliance in the whole zone.

[Zandalariprelate]

You know, I would like to see the forsaken to start loosing some territories in the north or some important battle because they are starting to be like some batman faction which can win any battle with x artifact, technology or guy that shows up in the right moment

[Heladys]

Other than every other evil thing she does, you mean?

[Zulkhan]

Gosh, stop validating each other in this TEH CIRCLEJERK

Indeed, the vicious cycle of "bias" accused by those so poisoned by hatred towards a fictional character to fiercely oppose any variation of their forced status quo. May the gods always have these moderate beings keep us in check.

[Magnagarde]

There is not much space left for her to improve in the field of being evil during this expansion after having bargained with Helya and all the other stuff her undead got going all over Azeroth in general.

[Mehrunes]

gosh mass replying like that is annoying. any way she tried to genocide gilanes when the horde attacked it and she started gasing the place. and as far as i can remember the alliance more or less leaves the forsaken alone, with south shore gone i don't think they have really pushed into forsaken land at all other then the small force at hillsbrad and that isn't forsaken land. the plague lands still had scourge and other stuff in it and isn't forsaken land. i could be wrong but i'm pretty sure all the furrys in silver pine were working on there own and not with the alliance as you see no alliance in the whole zone.

Using chemical weapons != genocide. Hillsbrad is part of Lordaeron and as such land Forsaken claimed. Plus most of the Alliance forces in Hillsbrad in Cata were either Stormpikes, which were the invaders in Alterac, and Bloodfang Pack Worgen from Gilneas. Same goes for WPL. Lordaeron territory, i.e. claimed by the Forsaken. VS Stormwind forces wanting to establish an outpost on Forsaken border to counter them. Worgen in Silverpine have been aided by the 7th Legion and the Mages in Ambermill that left Dalaran were yelling about how glorious the Alliance is and how they'll steamroll the Forsaken.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Using chemical weapons != genocide. Hillsbrad is part of Lordaeron and as such land Forsaken claimed. Plus most of the Alliance forces in Hillsbrad in Cata were either Stormpikes, which were the invaders in Alterac, and Bloodfang Pack Worgen from Gilneas. Same goes for WPL. Lordaeron territory, i.e. claimed by the Forsaken. VS Stormwind forces wanting to establish an outpost on Forsaken border to counter them. Worgen in Silverpine have been aided by the 7th Legion and the Mages in Ambermill that left Dalaran were yelling about how glorious the Alliance is and how they'll steamroll the Forsaken.

i could get that they own lordaeron or what they have of it but no i wouldn't say they automatically own every inch of what was once lordaeron land. south shore was still a thing for a long time so clearly there were others from lordaeron that held some claim to hillsbrad as well. as far as the plague lands go the scarlet crusade and the scourge owned most of it for the longest time so i wouldn't say that is forsaken land either. you could be right about silverpine i really don't remember as its been a few years since I've gone though there.

[Kallisto]

i could get that they own lordaeron or what they have of it but no i wouldn't say they automatically own every inch of what was once lordaeron land. south shore was still a thing for a long time so clearly there were others from lordaeron that held some claim to hillsbrad as well. as far as the plague lands go the scarlet crusade and the scourge owned most of it for the longest time so i wouldn't say that is forsaken land either. you could be right about silverpine i really don't remember as its been a few years since I've gone though there.

Here's the thing Southshore, hillsbrad, crusade all have one thing in common. They were openly hostile and attacking the forsaken before the forsaken fought back. The Forsaken pretty much at the start were leave us alone, we'll leave you alone. But instead humans from all sides went "Undead have no rights except for being put back in ground no matter how much free will they have." mentality, except for the Argents.

The lands the Forsaken have expanded into were either human aggressors or scourge.

[Mehrunes]

i could get that they own lordaeron or what they have of it but no i wouldn't say they automatically own every inch of what was once lordaeron land. south shore was still a thing for a long time so clearly there were others from lordaeron that held some claim to hillsbrad as well. as far as the plague lands go the scarlet crusade and the scourge owned most of it for the longest time so i wouldn't say that is forsaken land either. you could be right about silverpine i really don't remember as its been a few years since I've gone though there.

Automatically own every inch? No, they do not. But they have a much stronger claim for that land. Especially in cases like Cata Hillsbrad, where their main opponent are the Stormpikes. A faction that is an invader, by their own admission, even in the Alterac Valley. They have zero ties to Hillsbrad. Same goes to WPL. Farmers from Westfall and Stormwind military protecting them have no claim to the land. They got there to create another front against the Forsaken. Now, as for things prior to Cata proper, in relation to Hillsbrad the town, Ambermill (with things hinting towards the Alliance there) and even Southshore, it's unknown who started the hostilities. Even then, all three were only conquered in Cata when there was a global conflict going on, started by the Alliance. With Ambermill joining forces with the invading 7th Legion.

[Cathululock]

no because muhsoggyknee

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Automatically own every inch? No, they do not. But they have a much stronger claim for that land. Especially in cases like Cata Hillsbrad, where their main opponent are the Stormpikes. A faction that is an invader, by their own admission, even in the Alterac Valley. They have zero ties to Hillsbrad. Same goes to WPL. Farmers from Westfall and Stormwind military protecting them have no claim to the land. They got there to create another front against the Forsaken. Now, as for things prior to Cata proper, in relation to Hillsbrad the town, Ambermill (with things hinting towards the Alliance there) and even Southshore, it's unknown who started the hostilities. Even then, all three were only conquered in Cata when there was a global conflict going on, started by the Alliance. With Ambermill joining forces with the invading 7th Legion.

ya there's no claim in hillsbrad any more cause there all dead but in plague lands id bet still some of the argent crusade members have a claim not so much the peasants.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's the thing Southshore, hillsbrad, crusade all have one thing in common. They were openly hostile and attacking the forsaken before the forsaken fought back. The Forsaken pretty much at the start were leave us alone, we'll leave you alone. But instead humans from all sides went "Undead have no rights except for being put back in ground no matter how much free will they have." mentality, except for the Argents.

The lands the Forsaken have expanded into were either human aggressors or scourge.

as mehrunes said no one knows who started the fighting with southshore so for all we know the mud eating peasants were eating mud when the forsaken wanted to be brain eating peasants.