They are doing it!

[Darth Belichick]

Mobility, simplicity, throughput. Pick two.

No. It's a stupid mentality. Its how they designed the class. It shouldn't have a built in penalty because of it. Not saying we need to be #1 but to instantly be lower on the DPS threshold because of that idea is dumb.

[Bepples]

No. It's a stupid mentality. Its how they designed the class. It shouldn't have a built in penalty because of it. Not saying we need to be #1 but to instantly be lower on the DPS threshold because of that idea is dumb.

You can't just state "it's dumb" and expect it to be so. It is not fair for a spec to be both fully mobile and high damaging. Then you would have your arcane mages or elemental shamans looking at their spec thinking "How is my spec better?". Common sense dictates that there must be a trade off between mobility and high throughput and a spec should never be both. Personally, I think there is a 3rd variable in that equation: complexity. If a spec is mobile but also very complex and thus requires high multi-tasking skill, it's fine to do as much damage as more immobile but far simpler ranged. However, BM is very simple. Being able to be more mobile but do higher damage at a lower skillcap is simply unbalanced. Granted, on a training dummy BM even now is behind several specs and its impressive performance in Nighthold relies on the amount of movementin those fights... but it's certainly still ahead of Marksman even though Marksman takes more skill and is more immobile. Surely you can see how that's not fair.

[aGit]

there must be a trade off between mobility and high throughput

well, we have to use pets. that's a huge trade off in itself.

[adamthemute]

Soooo should I spend Nethershards on the ring? Have wrists and belt.

[Deleted]

I would be fine with taking a moderate damage nerf to keep these changes. BM's problem right now isn't its damage; it's the playstyle. BM is fully mobile, unlike any other ranged spec in the game. It's also very simple. Therefore it really shouldn't be outperforming ranged that are more complex and more immobile. I have been BM exclusively all expansion and I'm fine with that. As long as it's not utterly worthless like we had it in 6.2.

Mobility, simplicity, throughput. Pick two.

So following your logic every melee should have to be nerfed too because they are also very mobile I see how our not mobile casters look more than fine in the raid

[Deleted]

Finally! Took them just about a year from Legion pre patch beta where it was already pointed out that Dire Beast/Wildcall without a charge system was idiotic and as the only way to generate focus not properly working.

Though to be fair, players point out a lot of wrong or stupid things too...

[Bepples]

well, we have to use pets. that's a huge trade off in itself.

Yes, but only situationally. On most fights it doesn't matter or it makes a minimal difference. This is doubly true for when these changes go live.

So following your logic every melee should have to be nerfed too because they are also very mobile I see how our not mobile casters look more than fine in the raid

Uh, no, because melee are stuck to the boss. That was easy.

[ozusteapot]

A lot of the top dps specs are easy to play, affliction, frost mages/dks, retribution. I do agree that MM clearly deserves to deal more dps than it currently does due to the higher difficulty of the spec and its turret-gameplay. Hopefully they manage to make it so that vulnerable can have a guaranteed way of being applied besides windburst ( like for example make lone wolf baseline and replace its slot with a passive that guarantees a vulnerable proc at 100 focus), make aimed shot hit a bit harder and/or make the vulnerable window a bit more forgiving.

[Deleted]

Yes, but only situationally. On most fights it doesn't matter or it makes a minimal difference. This is doubly true for when these changes go live.



Uh, no, because melee are stuck to the boss. That was easy.

BMs also are stuck to the boss 80% of the damage is done by our pets.Yes i`m agree that in next patch pets will be much more mobile but now we are just like melees.We suffer with target swap just like them + the position of to be a ranged

[Emerald Archer]

He's assuming there won't be any change coming to MM hunter, which, based on the lack of blue posts directed to MM, and current buff going to BM, is the only valid assumption one can make. So as of now, given equal artifact power in both bm and mm, yes it will definitely be safer to focus in bm, since bm is already the superior single target spec before this buff even hits live.

All of this, of course is assuming optimal sim conditions (patchwerk), throw in any raid mechanics or movement and BM >>>>>MM


Also, im not sure how some people don't see this as a huge buff to bm. It basically makes shoulders baseline, and further buffs shoulder users to now have a much higher proc chance on crit, (to what extent we don't know), which basically means a much easier time keeping up 3 stacks, much more focus regen, etc.

At the very least, all bm hunters will now have acess to what is basically 3 legendaries, since they can use 2 legendaries of their choosing + a free shoulder. Of course I would expect blizzard to promptly nerf BM hunters 2 days AFTER the ptr goes live....

It isn't a valid assumption, there's still 2 months until it's out. This is a huge and awesome buff to BM yet, but we do not know how things will turn out for MM by then, even if we don't get a rework we could easily get a dmg buff that makes us competitive.

Because I'm bored, please jump on the hunter discord, and post your first paragraph there in the MM discord, I'd love to watch them tear that apart I've seen like 5 people so far mention that bm>mm in 7.2.5 in both bm and mm disc channels, and everytime, they're pretty much called retards and flamed hard. Because it's beyond stupid to make any assumptions 2 months before a patch, when it comes to spec strength.

[Bepples]

BMs also are stuck to the boss 80% of the damage is done by our pets.Yes i`m agree that in next patch pets will be much more mobile but now we are just like melees.We suffer with target swap just like them + the position of to be a ranged

No, it is not just like melee because a) we can still do at least some damage from ranged without our pet attacking (albeit minimal) and b) our pet is often charging between targets during Kill Command, even before this upcoming buff. BM can also do damage consistently from 40-100 yards away and behind Line of Sight. These are big advantages over other ranged specs.

It is SIMILAR to some degree to melee, but the types of mechanics that affect melee are different to those that affect ranged. Melee do sometimes have to outrange the target but not often. Ranged mechanics consistently require ranged DPS to move and thus lose DPS. BM doesn't lose any damage from moving. These are clear advantages that other ranged don't have so it would be unfair for BM.

Now, logs are going to be more favourable to BM than sims because most sims are done without any movement and so BM's mobility advantages don't show there. However it looks like BM is performing better than some caster specs even though many of them are more complex and more immobile. It's understandable how that doesn't sit well with them.

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't a valid assumption, there's still 2 months until it's out. This is a huge and awesome buff to BM yet, but we do not know how things will turn out for MM by then, even if we don't get a rework we could easily get a dmg buff that makes us competitive.

Because I'm bored, please jump on the hunter discord, and post your first paragraph there in the MM discord, I'd love to watch them tear that apart I've seen like 5 people so far mention that bm>mm in 7.2.5 in both bm and mm disc channels, and everytime, they're pretty much called retards and flamed hard. Because it's beyond stupid to make any assumptions 2 months before a patch, when it comes to spec strength.

It is absolutely a valid assumption for the reasons he mentioned. Remember 6.2? That was a tuning disaster. People swore up and down that a tuning pass would come and fix everything but the patch went live like that and BM and SV became dead specs for 14 months. Not to mention WoD beta where essentially the same thing happened ("Elemental shamans are overpowered and don't know it!") or even Legion beta. These sorts of tuning mishaps not only happen repeatedly; they happen consistently. It should be assumed that bad tuning will make it to live unless proven otherwise at this point.

[Emerald Archer]

It is absolutely a valid assumption for the reasons he mentioned. Remember 6.2? That was a tuning disaster. People swore up and down that a tuning pass would come and fix everything but the patch went live like that and BM and SV became dead specs for 14 months. Not to mention WoD beta where essentially the same thing happened ("Elemental shamans are overpowered and don't know it!") or even Legion beta. These sorts of tuning mishaps not only happen repeatedly; they happen consistently. It should be assumed that bad tuning will make it to live unless proven otherwise at this point.

It is extremely unvalid, sure be concerned about it, but people are getting upset and mad over something that hasn't happened yet.

People have the right to be concerned or worried about it happening, but angry? mad? upset? No way. Not over something we have no proof of or reason to believe yet.

It's like going to the shops, and getting angry before you left and writing a forum post complaining that they didn't have the bread you wanted in stock. You don't know if that's true, sure in the last few years they've been out of stock like 5 times, but you're getting mad before you even left to go see. It's needlessly negative. It helps nothing at all.

[shamjar]

I know, same situation here. Just waitin for the nerf hammer to come around

And does crit come more important us now? since the Ome with the pack does reset dire beast now everytime we crit? (if we choose the talent?)

[Bepples]

It is extremely unvalid, sure be concerned about it, but people are getting upset and mad over something that hasn't happened yet.

People have the right to be concerned or worried about it happening, but angry? mad? upset? No way. Not over something we have no proof of or reason to believe yet.

It's like going to the shops, and getting angry before you left and writing a forum post complaining that they didn't have the bread you wanted in stock. You don't know if that's true, sure in the last few years they've been out of stock like 5 times, but you're getting mad before you even left to go see. It's needlessly negative. It helps nothing at all.

We can't assume the tuning issues will remain, but we can't assume that they will be fixed either which seems to be what you are doing. If anything it's better to highlight these issues early; shutting people down with "it's early testing" might actually INCREASE The chance of it not being fixed if it actually reduces the amount of feedback going out.

We've been through this time and time again. Look how destructive 6.2 was for hunters: go look at how people reacted to the Serpent Sting change when it hit PTR in April 2015. It's all "this is really bad, but it's early PTR so they will fix it", and I absolutely think there was less feedback on it because it was such an absurd situation. Come late June 2015, 6.2 goes live with not a SINGLE change from the April build. Two months of PTR meant NOTHING. The sky really did fall. Marksman became the only viable hunter spec for 14 months. Survival crashed, going from a middle-of-the-pack spec in terms of popularity to dead last overnight and has simply never recovered. Beast Mastery couldn't compete with MM, and while not being as broken as Survival, was also largely abandoned. The worst case scenario happened.

And that's not the only time. This sort of nonsense happens routinely. You can COUNT on them doing this.

So when people see a bad situation in the early testing phase, they should very well be nervous. If it gets fixed, great! Happy to be wrong. You would much rather that than expect it to be fixed only for it to make it all the way to live and be crushingly disappointed like just about every other major patch release in the last 2 years.

You want to force bad analogies? It's actually like working in inventory at a shop and noticing that the milk is all way past expiry and spoiled, going to inform your supervisor and being told "this will be rectified" (or more like total silence in Blizzard's case), being reprimanded if you push it further only to find that product on the shelves later.... and having that happen again, and again, and again. Would you trust the company to get it right the nth time? Any sensible person would count on them getting it wrong! Sure, they might get it right once or twice (analogous to these recent BM changes)... but would you count on that?

[Emerald Archer]

We can't assume the tuning issues will remain, but we can't assume that they will be fixed either which seems to be what you are doing. If anything it's better to highlight these issues early; shutting people down with "it's early testing" might actually INCREASE The chance of it not being fixed if it actually reduces the amount of feedback going out.

We've been through this time and time again. Look how destructive 6.2 was for hunters: go look at how people reacted to the Serpent Sting change when it hit PTR in April 2015. It's all "this is really bad, but it's early PTR so they will fix it", and I absolutely think there was less feedback on it because it was such an absurd situation. Come late June 2015, 6.2 goes live with not a SINGLE change from the April build. Two months of PTR meant NOTHING. The sky really did fall. Marksman became the only viable hunter spec for 14 months. Survival crashed, going from a middle-of-the-pack spec in terms of popularity to dead last overnight and has simply never recovered. Beast Mastery couldn't compete with MM, and while not being as broken as Survival, was also largely abandoned. The worst case scenario happened.

And that's not the only time. This sort of nonsense happens routinely. You can COUNT on them doing this.

So when people see a bad situation in the early testing phase, they should very well be nervous. If it gets fixed, great! Happy to be wrong. You would much rather that than expect it to be fixed only for it to make it all the way to live and be crushingly disappointed like just about every other major patch release in the last 2 years.

You want to force bad analogies? It's actually like working in inventory at a shop and noticing that the milk is all way past expiry and spoiled, going to inform your supervisor and being told "this will be rectified" (or more like total silence in Blizzard's case), being reprimanded if you push it further only to find that product on the shelves later.... and having that happen again, and again, and again. Would you trust the company to get it right the nth time? Any sensible person would count on them getting it wrong! Sure, they might get it right once or twice (analogous to these recent BM changes)... but would you count on that?

Whining on a non-blizzard forum, or to a bunch of other hunters, won't help anything, it spreads a bunch of bs negativity that isn't needed. If they want it fixed/changed, post on the forums, get a group of hunters to help out and add their own post in.

Instead of going to the disc and being like "qq mm is ruined in 7.2.5" (which is what they're saying) go and say "Hey, I made this forum post to try and get some attention onto MM, can you guys throw a post in to help get it attention"

Most people who whine about mm being broken, don't have any suggestions on how to fix it. Work that out, be constructive. Make a big post on it.

BM hunters had what they wanted, pet fixed and 2 charges of dire, laid out to blizzard for months. And were very vocal and a community about what they wanted. Do the same.

Work out what we need, make a post on the BLIZZARD forums, and try to get it changed there. Whining about it and being a negative bitch on a non-blizzard website, will get you no where. And just brings the attitude down with no upside.

[Turtel]

We can't assume the tuning issues will remain, but we can't assume that they will be fixed either which seems to be what you are doing. If anything it's better to highlight these issues early; shutting people down with "it's early testing" might actually INCREASE The chance of it not being fixed if it actually reduces the amount of feedback going out.

We've been through this time and time again. Look how destructive 6.2 was for hunters: go look at how people reacted to the Serpent Sting change when it hit PTR in April 2015. It's all "this is really bad, but it's early PTR so they will fix it", and I absolutely think there was less feedback on it because it was such an absurd situation. Come late June 2015, 6.2 goes live with not a SINGLE change from the April build. Two months of PTR meant NOTHING. The sky really did fall. Marksman became the only viable hunter spec for 14 months. Survival crashed, going from a middle-of-the-pack spec in terms of popularity to dead last overnight and has simply never recovered. Beast Mastery couldn't compete with MM, and while not being as broken as Survival, was also largely abandoned. The worst case scenario happened.

And that's not the only time. This sort of nonsense happens routinely. You can COUNT on them doing this.

So when people see a bad situation in the early testing phase, they should very well be nervous. If it gets fixed, great! Happy to be wrong. You would much rather that than expect it to be fixed only for it to make it all the way to live and be crushingly disappointed like just about every other major patch release in the last 2 years.

You want to force bad analogies? It's actually like working in inventory at a shop and noticing that the milk is all way past expiry and spoiled, going to inform your supervisor and being told "this will be rectified" (or more like total silence in Blizzard's case), being reprimanded if you push it further only to find that product on the shelves later.... and having that happen again, and again, and again. Would you trust the company to get it right the nth time? Any sensible person would count on them getting it wrong! Sure, they might get it right once or twice (analogous to these recent BM changes)... but would you count on that?

The difference this time is that we have artifacts and legendaries, making it harder to switch specs. They even specifically mentioned early on that they didn't want people putting all their effort into one spec's artifact, only to find that spec useless later on. This ideology has been shown quite clearly and consistently so far. As soon as EN came out, a huge sweeping balance pass happened within a few days, then for the following few weeks they made small tweaks to a few specs at a time. The same happened after patch 7.1.5, as well as after Nighthold released and again after patch 7.2. For the whole expansion, basically every spec has been within a few % of each other, with only a couple of outlier specs at any given time. I think Blizzard have done an amazing job with balancing so far.

[Bepples]

Whining on a non-blizzard forum, or to a bunch of other hunters, won't help anything, it spreads a bunch of bs negativity that isn't needed. If they want it fixed/changed, post on the forums, get a group of hunters to help out and add their own post in.

Instead of going to the disc and being like "qq mm is ruined in 7.2.5" (which is what they're saying) go and say "Hey, I made this forum post to try and get some attention onto MM, can you guys throw a post in to help get it attention"

Most people who whine about mm being broken, don't have any suggestions on how to fix it. Work that out, be constructive. Make a big post on it.

BM hunters had what they wanted, pet fixed and 2 charges of dire, laid out to blizzard for months. And were very vocal and a community about what they wanted. Do the same.

Work out what we need, make a post on the BLIZZARD forums, and try to get it changed there. Whining about it and being a negative bitch on a non-blizzard website, will get you no where. And just brings the attitude down with no upside.

You are absolutely mental if you think that this isn't what people do. There are posts on the forums about this ALL THE TIME, including a THOUSAND-POST thread on the Class Discussion forums.... that failed to attract a single Blizzard response. With that sort of treatment from Blizzard, of course there is despair on discord/mmo-champion as well when it comes to Marksmanship discussion. This "constructive feedback" you just so patronisingly asked for has been worked out and given constantly since Alpha, and it has all been for nought. This BM change? This is the first time they have actually implemented the players' suggestions for a hunter spec since Legion was announced. MM has still not had that sort of response, so while they can be a little more hopeful that Blizzard is listening there is still no guarantee that things will get any better.

You know I am not actually a MM hunter? I exclusively play BM this expansion. But because I'm not self-absorbed and ignorant, I sympathise with Marksmanship's problems. I see their feedback on the forums. It's all tremendously detailed: Adreaver's posts easily go into the thousands of words. So far it hasn't got them anywhere. So for you to come here and smugly say "You just need to work out your problems and give feedback; you aren't doing that" is patronising, idiotic, and disconnected from reality.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...2502909?page=1

Here is you 1000 posts of ignored Marksman hunter feedback. It opens with 2000 words from Adreaver detailing problems with the spec and how to fix them. Most of those problems have existed since alpha, and during the testing phase you routinely had 30-50 pages per build of Marksmanship feedback.

They have EVERY RIGHT to be pissed. You, on the other hand, have no place for telling people that they aren't giving constructive feedback.

- - - Updated - - -

The difference this time is that we have artifacts and legendaries, making it harder to switch specs. They even specifically mentioned early on that they didn't want people putting all their effort into one spec's artifact, only to find that spec useless later on. This ideology has been shown quite clearly and consistently so far. As soon as EN came out, a huge sweeping balance pass happened within a few days, then for the following few weeks they made small tweaks to a few specs at a time. The same happened after patch 7.1.5, as well as after Nighthold released and again after patch 7.2. For the whole expansion, basically every spec has been within a few % of each other, with only a couple of outlier specs at any given time. I think Blizzard have done an amazing job with balancing so far.

Totally disconnected from reality. 7.1.5 was proof that that statement by Blizzard was a bold-faced lie. They made massive playstyle and throughput changes to Marksmanship which made it go from being better than SV and BM to being worse (increasingly worse, in fact). The scales have tipped heavily in favour of BM. At the end of Emerald Nightmare, 25k BM parses and 83k MM parses in mythic. In Mythic Nighthold at the end of 7.1.5, there are 56k BM parses and 37k MM parses. "This ideology has been shown quite clearly and consistently"? The only thing consistent here is how consistently Blizzard lies or breaks their promises. You have thousands of hunters with wasted AP in MM, finding they have to switch to be more competitive in 7.2. Sure, you have many MM hunters holding out and with the right legendaries, play, and conditions, it works out. But you went from massive MM dominance early Legion to clear and rising BM dominance now.

7.1.5 is in fact the perfect example of how their "no massive balance changes" philosophy was a farce/lie.

[Emerald Archer]

You are absolutely mental if you think that this isn't what people do. There are posts on the forums about this ALL THE TIME, including a THOUSAND-POST thread on the Class Discussion forums.... that failed to attract a single Blizzard response. With that sort of treatment from Blizzard, of course there is despair on discord/mmo-champion as well when it comes to Marksmanship discussion. This "constructive feedback" you just so patronisingly asked for has been worked out and given constantly since Alpha, and it has all been for nought. This BM change? This is the first time they have actually implemented the players' suggestions for a hunter spec since Legion was announced. MM has still not had that sort of response, so while they can be a little more hopeful that Blizzard is listening there is still no guarantee that things will get any better.

You know I am not actually a MM hunter? I exclusively play BM this expansion. But because I'm not self-absorbed and ignorant, I sympathise with Marksmanship's problems. I see their feedback on the forums. It's all tremendously detailed: Adreaver's posts easily go into the thousands of words. So far it hasn't got them anywhere. So for you to come here and smugly say "You just need to work out your problems and give feedback; you aren't doing that" is patronising, idiotic, and disconnected from reality.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...2502909?page=1

Here is you 1000 posts of ignored Marksman hunter feedback. It opens with 2000 words from Adreaver detailing problems with the spec and how to fix them. Most of those problems have existed since alpha, and during the testing phase you routinely had 30-50 pages per build of Marksmanship feedback.

They have EVERY RIGHT to be pissed. You, on the other hand, have no place for telling people that they aren't giving constructive feedback.

- - - Updated - - -



Totally disconnected from reality. 7.1.5 was proof that that statement by Blizzard was a bold-faced lie. They made massive playstyle and throughput changes to Marksmanship which made it go from being better than SV and BM to being worse (increasingly worse, in fact). The scales have tipped heavily in favour of BM. At the end of Emerald Nightmare, 25k BM parses and 83k MM parses in mythic. In Mythic Nighthold at the end of 7.1.5, there are 56k BM parses and 37k MM parses. "This ideology has been shown quite clearly and consistently"? The only thing consistent here is how consistently Blizzard lies or breaks their promises. You have thousands of hunters with wasted AP in MM, finding they have to switch to be more competitive in 7.2. Sure, you have many MM hunters holding out and with the right legendaries, play, and conditions, it works out. But you went from massive MM dominance early Legion to clear and rising BM dominance now.

7.1.5 is in fact the perfect example of how their "no massive balance changes" philosophy was a farce/lie.

I am a marksman hunter, that is what I main. I understand the issues, but if you spent 10minutes on the hunter discord, in MM channel, you'll see every single half decent hunter, thinks that people who are crying "the sky is falling" is a complete and utter moron.

Any hunter who goes in there and complains about doom and gloom, is called an austistic idiot, and told to fuck off with their dramatic bs.

So your "pity" for hunters, isn't wanted or needed.

[Mirishka]

Very exciting changes. I've grown to enjoy BM as is (while still recognizing its flaws), so anything that makes it better is a win as far as I'm concerned.

[Mavick]

Totally disconnected from reality. 7.1.5 was proof that that statement by Blizzard was a bold-faced lie. They made massive playstyle and throughput changes to Marksmanship which made it go from being better than SV and BM to being worse (increasingly worse, in fact). The scales have tipped heavily in favour of BM. At the end of Emerald Nightmare, 25k BM parses and 83k MM parses in mythic. In Mythic Nighthold at the end of 7.1.5, there are 56k BM parses and 37k MM parses. "This ideology has been shown quite clearly and consistently"? The only thing consistent here is how consistently Blizzard lies or breaks their promises. You have thousands of hunters with wasted AP in MM, finding they have to switch to be more competitive in 7.2. Sure, you have many MM hunters holding out and with the right legendaries, play, and conditions, it works out. But you went from massive MM dominance early Legion to clear and rising BM dominance now.

7.1.5 is in fact the perfect example of how their "no massive balance changes" philosophy was a farce/lie.

You want to talk about being disconnected from reality?

Here's the thing that gets consistently forgotten by everyone, particularly people like you: BM was only behind MM at the *start* of EN because of late trait and legendary dependence. If someone tabbed BM to play from the start, ground out all the traits and got the right two legendaries (then the belt/ring) they'd have done just as well as any MM at the time (and don't quote Ilg'ynoth to me because MM didn't just do better, cleave was built into their rotation so they were simply allowed to cleave while nearly all other dps were forced to choke damage). That's why BM got the big buffs it did in 7.1.5 (KC/Cobra Shot buff) to help out the people without the right legendaries to still be competitive, and it pushed the people who had them above MM. That's what enabled me to start playing BM even tho all I had at the time was belt/legs(pre 7.2 buff).

There was no lie from Blizzard, smarter people knew what was holding BM back, and when Blizzard started paying attention and rectified that we arrived to where we are today. There's no point in projecting your feelings towards proper balance (a class can't be mobile and do high damage and be easy to play), because it quite clearly doesn't hold up (nor should it, forcing handicaps isn't nor should ever be part of game design), and repeating it here is going to do you no good. If anything you should be arguing that ranged classes should have mobility, because the idea that a person can't chant words and wave arms while making one leg move in front of the other is what is really silly (and not fun).