IS this the MMO to be played right now?

[Resiak]

See I just don't think they are that different when looked at objectively. Let's do an RCA real quick (root cause analysis). In order to do this we need to define the problem: Why is WoW LFR/LFD considered toxic? Would you say because players are harassed for performing poorly? What other qualifiers go into WoW's toxicity?

Regarding Bad apples: I think so, because at the end of the day these players aren't common. They aren't likely to cause any real problems, and they put a few extra bucks into the game, that HOPEFULLY translate to more/better content. If I see someone harassing someone unnecessarily I'll step in, blacklist, and move on. It doesn't effect my experience negatively.

I guess it comes down the personal experience. Do you run a lot of random group content? If not, your less likely to see the stuff that goes down. Your server and battlegroup might be less aggressive towards each other.

As for the cause, I obviously can't give much more then my theories, but here they are:

The Bnet community was pretty famously bad. The initial rush of players came from this community and set a tone for the game right from the onsent.
A much broader playerbase. FF 14 is a bit more niche, and as such, draws in a playerbase that might be more respectful of each other, and the IP.
Sample size. Wow has a lot more players, and more odds to run into the jerks, that stand leave a bigger impression then the good players.
Lower bar of entry. Since any cheap computer can pretty much run Wow, people don't have as much invested in the hobby. So their less resperful of it.

These are just theories. I don't subscribe to lfd and lfr being a cause, since most mmos have similar systems in them, and don't have similar problems with their community.

And i guess i just have a tendency to think about the "little guy" a lot. I don't want to see players turned away because they had bad experiences because someone isn't patient enough handle them.

I don't ever want hardcore gaming. I just want engaging gaming. Look at Souls gameplay. It's not hard. It's engaging and punishing, but its not hard. It took me 30 minutes to have the basic strategy that carried me through the game and all DLC with relative ease. However, the entire time spent playing was engaging. There were consequences for taking risks or making bad decisions, everything I did was purposeful, and every mistake made had a clear feedback loop that helped me improve or develop new strategies to succeed.

Agreed. I look back at the things I did in EQ and cringe.

As much of a FFT fan as I am, I just can't get on board with the idea of the Oracle. I just don't see it fitting.

Now with that said, I think your idea isn't bad. It's actually what I would have come up with had I been tasked with developing the SMN class. The bigger issue IMO would be trying to find a balance between # of summons, and quality of summons.

The oracle directly pulled from FFT, no. But an altered idea could be. Remove the summons, add some debuffs double down on empowering the dots, and it makes more sense as an oracle then a summoner. But I really dislike 14's iteration of the summoner job.

[dope_danny]

What if they were sort of like magical bards with the summons being kind of a support decision with a shared, lengthy cooldown?

Titan gives a damage reduction, Ifrit, Garuda, Shiva are basically a cooldown damage dealing option. Or Shiva could be a PvP summon with a slow effect, etc.

The idea of summons being a big hit cooldown attack just seems to fit the usual class theme to me more than a pet class.

I would rather see something where summoner attacks build stacks of aetherflow and then you summon a, well summon, like most mainline titles as a big flashy spell and make the limit something like a random HM primal attack like ifrits charge or titans plumes or leviathans wave.

[Katchii]

What if they were sort of like magical bards with the summons being kind of a support decision with a shared, lengthy cooldown?

Titan gives a damage reduction, Ifrit, Garuda, Shiva are basically a cooldown damage dealing option. Or Shiva could be a PvP summon with a slow effect, etc.

The idea of summons being a big hit cooldown attack just seems to fit the usual class theme to me more than a pet class.

It really depends on how much power the actual Summoner has vs how much power is given to the summon/pet and how that's managed. I just don't want the player to feel useless and bored alongside or without their summon like in FFXI. I wouldn't mind giving the Summoner more direct control over the summon and having the primal be the primary source of damage. My main concern is the game play, not necessarily the aesthetic since I'm currently fine with how it is though admit things could be changed to feel more in line with previous iterations of Final Fantasy. So as long as the class feels fun to play and fits aesthetically I'm OK with it, and the FFXI design was not fun to me.

I remember reading a Q&A or something from a couple years ago where Yoshi-P basically said the reason the egi's weren't flashier is because of how hindering they'd be if they were larger and more detailed from both a game play perspective (huge things on the battlefield blocking your view, etc...) and from a graphical perspective when several of them might be on the screen at the same time. I tried searching for it and didn't find it.

[Faroth]

It really depends on how much power the actual Summoner has vs how much power is given to the summon/pet and how that's managed. I just don't want the player to feel useless and bored alongside or without their summon like in FFXI. I wouldn't mind giving the Summoner more direct control over the summon and having the primal be the primary source of damage. My main concern is the game play, not necessarily the aesthetic since I'm currently fine with how it is though admit things could be changed to feel more in line with previous iterations of Final Fantasy. So as long as the class feels fun to play and fits aesthetically I'm OK with it, and the FFXI design was not fun to me.

I remember reading a Q&A or something from a couple years ago where Yoshi-P basically said the reason the egi's weren't flashier is because of how hindering they'd be if they were larger and more detailed from both a game play perspective (huge things on the battlefield blocking your view, etc...) and from a graphical perspective when several of them might be on the screen at the same time. I tried searching for it and didn't find it.

Well, I was thinking the summon as a cooldown would be sort of a single attack, not like the summon would replace the summoner or anything. Sort of like a summoned attack being like Internal release, blood for blood, etc. it's just a DPS cooldown ability.

Traditionally, summon spells were just cool attack spells that set the summoner apart. There have been a few exceptions, but typically it was basically just the Summoner's equivalent of casting Bolt/Fire/Ice/Meteor/etc. Bigger MP for a bigger damage spell.

I think most Final Fantasy fans probably feel like Summoners didn't get the translation they deserve.

[Katchii]

Well, I was thinking the summon as a cooldown would be sort of a single attack, not like the summon would replace the summoner or anything. Sort of like a summoned attack being like Internal release, blood for blood, etc. it's just a DPS cooldown ability.

Traditionally, summon spells were just cool attack spells that set the summoner apart. There have been a few exceptions, but typically it was basically just the Summoner's equivalent of casting Bolt/Fire/Ice/Meteor/etc. Bigger MP for a bigger damage spell.

I think most Final Fantasy fans probably feel like Summoners didn't get the translation they deserve.

That's fair I think. I personally would rather be able to see and control my summon almost constantly. It being a cooldown spell would maybe look really cool by making the summons more flashy and detailed and whatnot, but would be pretty lack luster most of the time right? As a Summoner being able to only ever see your summons a few times per fight? No thanks.

I know a pet class wasn't what some fans wanted because it makes the summons feel and look weak compared to them being super powerful and flashy in the past, which is a fair argument, however from a game play perspective I think a pet class makes the most sense given the mechanics of the game and the implications of having multiple giant glowing primals floating/ running around on the battlefield.

[Faroth]

I can see the thinking, but Summoners have never been about controlling the summon either. Hard to determine the best balance between the two to bring to an MMO, I guess.

Being able to see and control the summon constantly is more akin to a Beastmaster imo.

[Kazgrel]

The only prior encounter I have with a summoner in the FF series was Rydia in FF4, aka a black mage who could also call to summons to have them wreck stuff for her.

Would be hilarious were BLM to be able to "summon" creatures of the void as a short cooldown or something. I say hilarious due to the amount of salt it would generate.

[Berethos08]

Well, I was thinking the summon as a cooldown would be sort of a single attack, not like the summon would replace the summoner or anything.

A set of mechanics similar to the current implementation of Dreadwyrm Trance and Deathflare, but with the focus being on building toward summoning an entity for a brief window would have worked in my opinion.

Could have kept the Carbuncle around as the defacto pet since those drawn to the class initially would likely be drawn by that factor as well.

Interestingly enough, they've left themselves an opening for going down this path in the future - they established lorewise that having more than three egi is too much strain on the Summoner (and mechanically they are unlikely to add a new role for the pets to fill), but that you can for now channel the power of a primal in certain circumstances, which is how DWT works (and you even briefly see an aether style Bahamut head briefly appear when activating DWT).

A spell that is powerful enough that it briefly takes on the appearance of the primal/summon it's associated with is a very possible next step.

[G3istly]

I main Summoner in this game and hated the iteration of them in FFXI because in a group they were very boring to play. Unless you wanted to act like a back-up healer you summoned your avatar (which were all pretty badass) hit your cooldown to have them do their attack (called a "Blood Pact") and then usually dismissed them so your mana wasn't getting drained, then waited for that ability to come off cooldown before you repeated the process. The idea was awesome, but execution was boring, IMO. Solo they were beasts, but in group play they were quite boring compared to other classes.

Yeah they could be more flashy, but I'm OK with their current design because it puts the control and output onto the Summoner rather than making the Summoner just a battery for the primals. If the design were to switch it and make the primal be the main source of damage and the Summoner were just a small portion, I'm not sure that would go over well.

Oh, I'm not saying they were perfect but then again, nothing about Final Fantasy XI was. All I'm saying is that I'd happily take that over what we have now because at least it felt like a proper Summoner instead of... whatever this is. So you're telling me that people would be upset if they made Summoners like they are in literally every other (Final Fantasy) game? I'm okay with that.

[Katchii]

Oh, I'm not saying they were perfect but then again, nothing about Final Fantasy XI was. All I'm saying is that I'd happily take that over what we have now because at least it felt like a proper Summoner instead of... whatever this is. So you're telling me that people would be upset if they made Summoners like they are in literally every other (Final Fantasy) game? I'm okay with that.

No, I'm saying people would be upset if the class were boring to play. Summoners in previous games didn't really do anything besides summon a primal/eidolon/ avatar and let it do all the work. That would be incredibly boring to play in an MMO. If they were able to implement that concept in a way that still made gameplay fun and engaging I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

[Wrecktangle]

I guess it comes down the personal experience. Do you run a lot of random group content? If not, your less likely to see the stuff that goes down. Your server and battlegroup might be less aggressive towards each other.

In WoW I do run a lot of random group content, but typically only at the highest echelons (very high mythic + keys, very difficult to get into mythic pugs (that regularly clear 50%+ of the raid while it's current). These experiences are very pleasant because they automatically weed out the players who flat out cannot participate. There is no raging, belittling, or harassing. More often than not, someone is aware they're not pulling weight and apologizes and volunteers to leave. FWIW I have seen this behavior before in FF14 too, however, not at the upper echelons, but more towards low end/midcore.

I don't subscribe to lfd and lfr being a cause, since most mmos have similar systems in them, and don't have similar problems with their community.

And i guess i just have a tendency to think about the "little guy" a lot. I don't want to see players turned away because they had bad experiences because someone isn't patient enough handle them.

The idea of this RCA was to identify if feedback is in fact toxic or if there are other measures. LFD/LFR isn't the root cause so we agree there. If anything IMO the root cause would be visible performance feedback. FF14 provides 0 feedback. WoW gives ample feedback. People often praise FF14 for its environment, while people curse WoW for its.

The question then becomes is it truly toxic if the same circumstance exists in both games, but one hides it vs. other showing it? Think of it like this, imagine if you're at school or work on a team project. Everyone shows up to meetings, does the work, and participates in the project, but one person only shows up for the presentation. You all get a 96. This person got the reward without putting any effort in. In the real world there are consequences for this. In Gaming, Sports, Careers, and Education this behavior is prevalent and arguably considered toxic and there are consequences for it. In WoW there are consequences for it, but why does FF14 not give any consequences? I think its more toxic failing to give a gamer good feedback than it is to see someone criticized in real time. All IMO of course.

I think most Final Fantasy fans probably feel like Summoners didn't get the translation they deserve.

Agreed one of my biggest issues regarding SMN is not the egi's or the lack of big SMN attacks, it's the weird assortment of spells. I'm all for a DoT class, but fundamentally and thematically that just isn't the archetype SMN should have went for IMO.

If I were designing SMN I might suggest a system similar to a melee rather than a caster (no pet). Imagine if the SMN has ranged combo attacks. The first the SMN waves his book and Ifrit appears for a quarter second and claw swipes with fire. The second press Summons Ifrit again this time for a 1/2 a second. he breaths fire then fades away. The third cast summons Ifrit again, this time for a full second as he summons a Radiant Plume below the enemy before fading away. That's 1 combo.

A second combo could do something similar, but for Titan. It could be an earth based boulder throw -> then a landslide, -> then the Mountain Buster.

You'd have oGCD's similar to a melee that summoned briefly to do an effect that could maybe be boosted if cast during the summons combo chain. Like a Titan oGCD that summons weight of the land that slows and AOE's, does bonus damage or a DoT or stuns if done during Titan combo. An Ifrit oGCD could be something like his dashes to deal damage and knockback, etc.

With each expansion find ways to bring in a new summon or 2 via new skills. Maybe even have a DPS cooldown like this (might need to replace DW Trance):

Esper Ascension: Channels the aether of the most recent summon used empowering you with their essence. Thematically you'd look like DW Trance but gfx wise more related to most recent summon.

Maybe during this cooldown every ability you pressed (say you pressed CD after Ifrit's last combo attack/oGCD) summoned your existing Primal in addition to the new one you pressed. You could end the ability early by activating their ultimate attack. So Pressing Titan boulder throw does that, and summons an empowered Ifrit to do his more elegant combo attack. Then pressing landslide would summon an empowered Ifrit that also does double breath move or something then lastly like AOE radiant plumes or something.

That's fair I think. I personally would rather be able to see and control my summon almost constantly. It being a cooldown spell would maybe look really cool by making the summons more flashy and detailed and whatnot, but would be pretty lack luster most of the time right? As a Summoner being able to only ever see your summons a few times per fight? No thanks.

I know a pet class wasn't what some fans wanted because it makes the summons feel and look weak compared to them being super powerful and flashy in the past, which is a fair argument, however from a game play perspective I think a pet class makes the most sense given the mechanics of the game and the implications of having multiple giant glowing primals floating/ running around on the battlefield.

See above - what are your thoughts on a system playing out like this? I know it removes the pet class fantasy which some might like, but it feels more SMN to me than the existing piece, while remaining true to themes and gameplay.

In this iteration you'd see summons frequently, but only ever for a split second and for various degrees of power, but a SMN is one person they cannot sustain the entity for super long. I think gameplay wise the idea of a ranged combo system seems cool. I'd actually consider playing it and I hate ranged caster types.

[Gandrake]

I don't think I have ever once wiped in a dungeon at 50+. My friends and I wiped a few times in leveling dungeons, but that's because 2 of us never spent gil to upgrade gear so we on average had gear from 15-20 levels below our actual levels.

*shrug*

the game punishes you pretty badly if you fuck up. if you get caught in a mechanic it's usually imminent if not instant death and is a huge hindrance on dps. hell, if you die and you get rezzed you come back with no resources and do less dps.

it's not a direct translation but the content of ffxiv is much more punishing than general content ive played in wow.

[Wrecktangle]

*shrug*

the game punishes you pretty badly if you fuck up. if you get caught in a mechanic it's usually imminent if not instant death and is a huge hindrance on dps. hell, if you die and you get rezzed you come back with no resources and do less dps.

it's not a direct translation but the content of ffxiv is much more punishing than general content ive played in wow.

Examples of mechanics found in dungeons that insta kill you? I don't recall seeing any. However, your statement regarding the level of punishment for dying is accurate.

[Myah]

I'm seeing all this discontent talk about SMN and it's the only char I've played (besides some SCH for quicker queues and the other classes for the extra skills).

Is the DPS really that much lower? I like the dot-style job, though the high GCD will always bug me to death. But if they are so undesired in raids end game, I might just level something else for SB

[Katchii]

See above - what are your thoughts on a system playing out like this? I know it removes the pet class fantasy which some might like, but it feels more SMN to me than the existing piece, while remaining true to themes and gameplay.

In this iteration you'd see summons frequently, but only ever for a split second and for various degrees of power, but a SMN is one person they cannot sustain the entity for super long. I think gameplay wise the idea of a ranged combo system seems cool. I'd actually consider playing it and I hate ranged caster types.

I actually like that idea. My main thing for Summoner is to feel like a caster who's entire purpose is to summon and / or control a primal so seeing the connection or the primal just drives that home but seeing it really frequently for split seconds would also fulfill that. I don't have any particular attachment to it being a DoT pet class, or even a caster. I've also always personally really liked the implications and aesthetics of a melee caster, similar to the Rift Mage Harbinger, or the Age of Conan Herald of Xotli.

As I said, as long as the gameplay is engaging and fun (not boring) AND the class feels like a Summoner I'm OK with it. So channeling the power of the primals through split second melee attacks while actually seeing the primal would be cool.

I'd honestly prefer it to stay a caster DoT pet class, but actually make the spells you use tie directly back to the primals you're drawing the power from. Like have The three main DoTs be a fire based one from Ifrit, a Wind based on from Garuda and maybe a water based one from Leviathan with the direct damage spell being like a rock punch from Titan or something. Just spitballing here.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm seeing all this discontent talk about SMN and it's the only char I've played (besides some SCH for quicker queues and the other classes for the extra skills).

Is the DPS really that much lower? I like the dot-style job, though the high GCD will always bug me to death. But if they are so undesired in raids end game, I might just level something else for SB

Summoner DPS is fine. We excel in dungeons and are the AoE damage kings when played correctly. We're not at the top of the single target DPS pyramid, but we're nowhere near the bottom either. Just because we're not in the "ideal" comp for progression raiding doesn't mean they aren't used in raids. I see the all over the place.

[Dasffion]

Examples of mechanics found in dungeons that insta kill you? I don't recall seeing any. However, your statement regarding the level of punishment for dying is accurate.

Doom on the first boss in Quarn is one that springs to mind immediately. If you're considering trials as dungeons then pretty much every extreme mode has at least one instant kill mechanic.

[Resiak]

I'm seeing all this discontent talk about SMN and it's the only char I've played (besides some SCH for quicker queues and the other classes for the extra skills).

Is the DPS really that much lower? I like the dot-style job, though the high GCD will always bug me to death. But if they are so undesired in raids end game, I might just level something else for SB

It's not the output thats really the complaint. They are just fine from a numbers standpoint. One of the best DPS in AOE.

Most people's issue is with the overall design and feel of the job. I know I have a high expectation from the summoner job as it's one of my favorite in the ff world. But I don't get much enjoyment from playing it in 14. The designs of the egi are pretty lame. The actual game play of the egi was built in a way that theres not much room for growth. Garuda, ifrit, and titan already cover all the bases. And I'm over playing dot users. I played warlock from release through cata, and again in legion. I'm a bit over it. I'd rather another job be the dot user, and summoner focus on using the powers of the primals in some way.

[Kazgrel]

I'm seeing all this discontent talk about SMN and it's the only char I've played (besides some SCH for quicker queues and the other classes for the extra skills).

Is the DPS really that much lower? I like the dot-style job, though the high GCD will always bug me to death. But if they are so undesired in raids end game, I might just level something else for SB

For me, SMN is absolute king, at least when running level 60 content. I can actually equal, and ever so rarely, exceed my single target SMN dps as MNK or BLM (all at 270 ilvl), but when it comes to AoE, nothing comes even close. BLM is a distant second to SMN AoE now (thanks, Flare nerf).

If anything is behind in terms of raw dps, in my experience, it's BRD, but 1. I don't have quite as good gear on it (currently at 263 ilvl) and 2. I haven't played it near as much as the other dps I mentioned just now...oh and 3. I honestly believe I'm shit at playing BRD.

[Berethos08]

Examples of mechanics found in dungeons that insta kill you? I don't recall seeing any. However, your statement regarding the level of punishment for dying is accurate.

Doom on the final boss of Sunken Temple of Qarn at 35 (as mentioned above), the Disclosure ability the Demon Book uses in Gubal Library Normal Mode, the Meteor that is summoned at the final boss of Gubal Library Hard Mode, Sable Price as cast by Nidhogg in the Aery, and the ability the first boss (undead Goobue) uses in Amdapor Keep Hard that swallows a player that needs to be freed are some that come to mind.

[G3istly]

No, I'm saying people would be upset if the class were boring to play. Summoners in previous games didn't really do anything besides summon a primal/eidolon/ avatar and let it do all the work. That would be incredibly boring to play in an MMO. If they were able to implement that concept in a way that still made gameplay fun and engaging I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

That's the point of them. If that doesn't appeal to you then a Summoner isn't the class you should be playing. There's no reason to gut what the class should be to appease people who can't stand not constantly hitting their face into a keyboard. That said, the Summoner of Final Fantasy XI wasn't exactly "passive" so it would do well in this game with perhaps a small bit of polish.