"Pay to Win"

[ComputerNerd]

You mean if a government provides payment services to murder people because of the reason "people will always murder other people" is not evil? That is legalized corruption which will always make corruption even worse.

And that is not in any way arguing with what I asked for.
I simply stated that if someone wants to tell me I am wrong, don't do it by adding extra rules.
Give me all the rules to begin with.

You can't define pay to win.
That is why you refuse to.
Because you cannot properly tell me what is or isn't an advantage in terms which simply apply to every case.

[Jagscorpion]

My definition of p2w would be that someone who pays cash gains a substantial advantage over a invested-but-poor gamer, say an undergrad student with a fair amount of free time. In this case someone who pays cash gains a relatively low amount of gold. Compared to someone who spends several hours a day or more on the weekend in game there is no substantial advantage.

Someone with tons of gold may pick up a piece here or there for astronomical prices that someone without tons may forgo, but this is generally not going to greatly effect the power curve, especially since the largest impact comes from artifact power, which is not buyable.

This is not to mention that in order for gold to have the kind of impact people talk about, you have to buy a run from mythic raiders. Those guys didn't pay their way. To actually do the content typically takes skill and dedication. To even have a conversation about buying power with cash is to assume that people have already done it without that advantage, which in my opinion makes the discussion moot.

[Deleted]

I can pay a 3rd party.

And I can steal an iPhone, doesn't mean iPhones are free. This is something a reasonable person of average intelligence would understand without trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

[Tharkkun]

Yea, again, it doesn't matter if you catch up, you only need to be able to buy power, and that is possible.

I feel like I'm talking to wall here. My 5 year old autistic grandson understands logic more than you.

[Fabinas]

Of course having the main in-game currency is an advantage compared to people who have none. But defining it as THE advantage that causes pay2win is idiotic, as gold can be easily earned in game. Having gold without items to spend it on, does not create "win". If there are no items in AH or players selling them, the gold, whether bought or earned, is not creating an advantage to "win". Since Blizzard does not sell items with gold that give a substantial in-game advantage you cannot define WoW as pay2win.

[Deleted]

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You guys are tangled up completely. All of your arguments are highly controversial. This does not mean that you are wrong or right. The proof is missing.

P2W is also a high controversial term. Nothing around this term is set in stone. P2W is not defined. The only way to get an idea at which point P2W begins or not is to look at all the other P2W games and their communities and compare them with each other.

All the Games which are described as P2W by the major part of their communities are very simillar to each other:

1) They have an Ingame-Store-Interface, which is accessable for every player worldwide, 24 hours per week, 365 days per year. The availability of the offered items/services is unlimited for every player worldwide.

2) To purchase stuff out of the Ingame-Store-Interface requires a special currency. This currency is only obtainable through real money investment. The exchange rate between currency and real money is fixated (every player will receive the same amount of p2w-currency for their real local currency investment.) P2W-Currency has also a lot of power, you receive a lot compared to the invested real money.

3) Their communities are splitted in half: normal players and wallet warriors. Endgame PvE-Content and Endgame PvP-Content are always ruled by wallet warriors. You must be ready to pay in those games, if you want to play at competitive level. You must pay to get the opportunity to win.



Its actually pointless to compare these three points with WoW, but just for fun:

1) WoW doesnt have an Ingame-Store-Interface which offers items/services to all players worldwide, 24 hours per week, 365 days per year.

2) The WoW Token cannot be called P2W-Currency, because you can't trade them for items/services. You cannot buy something with it what grants any kind of advantage. You can trade the token against gold, the usual ingame currency every game has and which is obtainable by any player without money investment.

3) The WoW community is not splitted by normal players and wallet warriors, its splitted only by time-investment and skill.


Additional to this there are still two major differences between true P2W and WoW.

If you purchase and receive a item/service out of the Ingame-Store-Interface, the stuff is generated automatically. No further input in the form of time investment/work/whatever needed. If you buy items out of the AH or Sellrun, you just transfer the necessary input to someone else.

Sellruns are offered by 3rd party, by players like you and I. Its completely in their hand. Not only their ability to push other players for gold, but also their mood. There is no baseline, no guarantee.

3) Their communities are splitted in half: normal players and wallet warriors. Endgame PvE-Content and Endgame PvP-Content are always ruled by wallet warriors. You must be ready to pay in those games, if you want to play at competitive level. You must pay to get the opportunity to win.

The discussion about the "(huge) advantage against other players". An advantage is an advantage when the advantage makes a difference.

If Frank buys a full setup of 925 from a several month old content, he would receive an advantage for sure, but this advantage wouldn't have any effect on someone else. It wouldn't make any difference in the community nor in his direct reach.

But if Frank would be able to join a community due to his purchase, a community which is ruling the leaderboards in PvE and PvP, this would make a huge difference and it would affect the community. He would receive an opportunity that normal players would never have. But this would only happen if the community were already separated through P2W.

P2W describes that you cannot win without paying. You can play this game the normal way for sure, but you will never be able to win. Win means to reach a goal in a competition. Just to reach your personal goal has nothing to do with competition. Frank with his 925 gear reached only his personal goal.

Sellruns in WoW are offered by the winners of the competition no matter if we talk about pve or pvp. Frank would never be able to offer such a service. He paid, but he didnt win and he has never the chance to win due to his payment.

[melodramocracy]

If Frank buys a full setup of 925 from a several month old content, he would receive an advantage for sure, but this advantage wouldn't have any effect on someone else. It wouldn't make any difference in the community nor in his direct reach.

It doesn't need to though, and it's still an advantage as you say.

There's a good deal of gray area here, bottom line really is that Blizzard condones (or at least, certainly doesn't ban) players selling mythic runs for gold, and also provides services to turn a players cash into gold. It's also a fairly easy argument to make that defeating the hardest pve content that is current *IS*, at least for that timeframe, beating the game, ie winning.

[ComputerNerd]

And I can steal an iPhone, doesn't mean iPhones are free. This is something a reasonable person of average intelligence would understand without trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

I am not arguing for the sake of it.
You are.
I say that in order to make a claim that the game is pay to win, you need to fully define that.
In a way that applies to every game you think is that, and leaving no such vague statements.
Repeating it does not change how vague that statement is.

Constant refusal to just put that altogether you cannot honestly say has any reasoning behind it other than being unable to.
"Paying" without context can mean developer or 3rd party.
"advantage" without context can mean advantages you dismiss as not gameplay affecting, not power increases.
Does not mean they are not an advantage.
Plus how does that equal "winning", when players have very different definitions of that.

You statement needs to stand on its own, or is isnt a definition.

You cannot tell someone they are wrong if you can't provide a full statement clearing up any valid alternative interpretations.

You know that.

If I define an apple, and then applying that word for word incorrectly identify something else as an apple then my definition is not good enough.
I found your definition to allow just that, a meaning you did not want.
You tell me what you think it should mean, but refusing to put that in the original definition shows that it is harder to define than you like to admit.
Because it has to apply to every game as it is, not just WoW.

[Deleted]

It doesn't need to though, and it's still an advantage as you say.

There's a good deal of gray area here, bottom line really is that Blizzard condones (or at least, certainly doesn't ban) players selling mythic runs for gold, and also provides services to turn a players cash into gold. It's also a fairly easy argument to make that defeating the hardest pve content that is current *IS*, at least for that timeframe, beating the game, ie winning.

P2W describes that you cannot win without paying. You can play this game the normal way for sure, but you will never be able to win. Win means to reach a goal in a competition. Just to reach your personal goal has nothing to do with competition. Frank with his 925 gear reached only his personal goal.

Sellruns in WoW are offered by the winners of the competition no matter if we talk about pve or pvp. Frank would never be able to offer such a service. He paid, but he didnt win and he has never the chance to win due to his payment.

[Jaylock]

You guys are tangled up completely. All of your arguments are highly controversial. This does not mean that you are wrong or right. The proof is missing.

P2W is also a high controversial term. Nothing around this term is set in stone. P2W is not defined. The only way to get an idea at which point P2W begins or not is to look at all the other P2W games and their communities and compare them with each other.

All the Games which are described as P2W by the major part of their communities are very simillar to each other:

1) They have an Ingame-Store-Interface, which is accessable for every player worldwide, 24 hours per week, 365 days per year. The availability of the offered items/services is unlimited for every player worldwide.

2) To purchase stuff out of the Ingame-Store-Interface requires a special currency. This currency is only obtainable through real money investment. The exchange rate between currency and real money is fixated (every player will receive the same amount of p2w-currency for their real local currency investment.) P2W-Currency has also a lot of power, you receive a lot compared to the invested real money.

3) Their communities are splitted in half: normal players and wallet warriors. Endgame PvE-Content and Endgame PvP-Content are always ruled by wallet warriors. You must be ready to pay in those games, if you want to play at competitive level.



Its actually pointless to compare these three points with WoW, but just for fun:

1) WoW doesnt have an Ingame-Store-Interface which offers items/services to all players worldwide, 24 hours per week, 365 days per year.

2) The WoW Token cannot be called P2W-Currency, because you can't trade them for items/services. You cannot buy something with it what grants any kind of advantage. You can trade the token against gold, the usual ingame currency every game has and which is obtainable by any player without money investment.

3) The WoW community is not splitted by normal players and wallet warriors, its splitted only by time-investment and skill.


Additional to this there are still two major differences between true P2W and WoW.

If you purchase and receive a item/service out of the Ingame-Store-Interface, the stuff is generated automatically. No further input in the form of time investment/work/whatever needed. If you buy items out of the AH or Sellrun, you just transfer the necessary input to someone else.

Sellruns are offered by 3rd party, by players like you and I. Its completely in their hand. Not only their ability to push other players for gold, but also their mood. There is no baseline, no guarantee.



The discussion about the "(huge) advantage against other players". An advantage is an advantage when the advantage makes a difference.

If Frank buys a full setup of 925 from a several month old content, he would receive an advantage for sure, but this advantage wouldn't have any effect on someone else. It wouldn't make any difference in the community nor in his direct reach.

But if Frank would be able to join a community due to his purchase, a community which is ruling the leaderboards in PvE and PvP, this would make a huge difference and it would affect the community. He would receive an opportunity that normal players would never have. But this would only happen if the community were already separated through P2W.

Very good analysis.

In all sense of the definition as clearly outlined by you, WoW is not P2W.

The "feeling" or the round about way people are claiming it to be just doesn't hold water to the true definition of P2W.

[Deleted]

I am not arguing for the sake of it.

So far you have contributed nothing but pointless arguing. I have over and over clarified the things that are unclear to you, but you keep whining over and over about the same things.

I say that in order to make a claim that the game is pay to win, you need to fully define that.
In a way that applies to every game you think is that, and leaving no such vague statements.

I have: "Pay2win means the ability to buy an in-game advantage with real money."

"Paying" without context can mean developer or 3rd party.
"advantage" without context can mean advantages you dismiss as not gameplay affecting, not power increases.

A reasonable person with average intelligence will not need further clarification on the terms "paying" or "advantage". But you do need those clarifications, so I have clarified them to you multiple times now. Do you keep forgetting or why do you keep asking about the same thing over and over?

[Elim Garak]

It doesn't need to though, and it's still an advantage as you say.

There's a good deal of gray area here, bottom line really is that Blizzard condones (or at least, certainly doesn't ban) players selling mythic runs for gold, and also provides services to turn a players cash into gold. It's also a fairly easy argument to make that defeating the hardest pve content that is current *IS*, at least for that timeframe, beating the game, ie winning.

The WIN in p2w has nothing to do with "beating the game". Now if there's an official (in the game, organized by devs, etc) competition called "who beats the game first" - then we can talk about p2w.

[ComputerNerd]

So far you have contributed nothing but pointless arguing. I have over and over clarified the things that are unclear to you, but you keep whining over and over about the same things.



I have: "Pay2win means the ability to buy an in-game advantage with real money."



A reasonable person with average intelligence will not need further clarification on the terms "paying" or "advantage". But you do need those clarifications, so I have clarified them to you multiple times now. Do you keep forgetting or why do you keep asking about the same thing over and over?

It is not pointless.
I was asked to do something specific, decide based on that argument if wow was pay to win.
I said I could not, and why.
You want something from me, but refuse to give back in exchange.
Because you cannot do it.

Again saying I have low intelligence, being singled out despite others making similar arguments.
You lost, simple as that.

That statement is full of assumptions though, as I pointed out.
If you want to prove me wrong, it is very simple to do.
I have very clearly said that you can't provide that comprehensive statement, and so far you have only proven me right with constant refusal.
Do that if you can, otherwise continue proving you are lying.

[Deleted]

"Pay2win means the ability to buy an in-game advantage with real money."

This is the most common definition of P2W. In my opinion this describtion is way too vague. The term of "advantage" in this context does not include any kind of advantage.

My understanding of this is:

P2W describes an environment in the gaming scene at which it is impossible to win without paying. Even the fact you pay does not guarantee you win. The term "win" or "winning" describes to reach a goal in competitive environment. You cannot "win" without competition. "Win" or "winning" is inseperatly connected to the term "competition". The amount of winners is limited in a competition (in most cases to the first place). This means even if you pay, you have no guarantee to win.

Together: P2W describes an environment in the gaming scene at which it is impossible to receive the opportunity to win without paying.

Now I want to explain what the "advantage" in this context means for me.

To become a comparable player you must invest money to get the necessary power to be on par with all the other nerds which investing money in the game. The side effect is, that you will automatically overpower all the players which dont invest money in the game. Overpower doesn't mean anything less than to be able to destroy all the normal players (in most cases based on PvP).

But to be honest, I never said that the normal player is not able to get all the items which the payable players have. But the normal way to get to those items is combined with a hugh investment of stressful time. The circumstance that an payable player section exist, especially in PvP, makes it even harder for the normal players to catch up. But the requirement in stressful time is not related to the benifits. It happes quite rarely that someone is able to get to the endgame normal way in P2W titles.

the "advantage" in context with P2W means:

- The obtainable power makes an huge difference between the normal guy and the "enhanced" one.
- huge time-saving effect of hundreds/thousands hours of grinding

with these information we can build a clearer utterance:

P2W describes a state in the gaming scene at which it is impossible to receive the opportunity to win without paying, due to insane time requirements and/or necessary purchasable player power.

[Deleted]

If is the fault of the definition if there are valid alternatives.



You simply state pay.
I can pay a 3rd party.
I can pay blizzard.
The word is the same, hence why you need to do better than that.

You decide the legitimacy by the game rules or terms is an additional requirement only because it suits you.
State that to begin with.

Nope, its not, like people are pointing out at you.
Paying cash to get an in game advantage, it still stands.

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snip

1) yes, wow does have a cash shop that is open 24/7 for you to buy stuff. so that would make it p2w
2) The wow token can be called p2w, as you pay cash to get an in game advantage
3) This has nothing to do with p2w, some people will pay others won't that doesn't make the game p2w or not p2w. And there is no need for players to be split because of this.

Pay to win doesn't describe a game where you can only pay to win, games like that won't ever sell good. There is always a way to play that game and go to the end of that game by playing it. It just takes allot longer to complete it without paying and most of the time the experience isn't that good.

The discussion about the "(huge) advantage against other players". An advantage is an advantage when the advantage makes a difference.

I would disagree, an advantage is an advantage when other people do not get to have it. If you buy a fresh set of gear you won't have any advantage over the people running mythic, no, but you will have bought an advantage over the other dude that just leveled his toon and did not pay anything.

It really doesn't matter who is the one that does the selling of power in game, as long as they are sanctioned by the games developers. That it is players selling the loot is no different then blizzard selling it, they approve of this (its hard not to, that is true) but because you can buy the gold, this is what makes it p2w. If you could only get gold by playing the game then this would not be p2w.

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This is the most common definition of P2W. In my opinion this describtion is way too vague. The term of "advantage" in this context does not include any kind of advantage.

So it is the most common definition, but you do not agree with the definition. You do not agree with the definition because it doesn't include any kind of advantage? But at the same time it includes every kind of advantage.

My understanding of this is:

P2W describes an environment in the gaming scene at which it is impossible to win without paying. Even the fact you pay does not guarantee you win. The term "win" or "winning" describes to reach a goal in competitive environment. You cannot "win" without competition. "Win" or "winning" is inseperatly connected to the term "competition". The amount of winners is limited in a competition (in most cases to the first place). This means even if you pay, you have no guarantee to win.

Yes, this is your opinion, but there really is no need to have a game that you cant play without paying for it. All you need is be able to buy power with cash.

Together: P2W describes an environment in the gaming scene at which it is impossible to receive the opportunity to win without paying.

Now I want to explain what the "advantage" in this context means for me.

Firstly, this kind of game hardly exist anymore, all games these days can be won without paying. It will be much harder, time consuming and more tidies, but it can be done.
Another problem with your definition is that you can sell bis gear in the shop and it would still not be pay to win.

[ComputerNerd]

Nope, its not, like people are pointing out at you.
Paying cash to get an in game advantage, it still stands.

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1) yes, wow does have a cash shop that is open 24/7 for you to buy stuff. so that would make it p2w
2) The wow token can be called p2w, as you pay cash to get an in game advantage
3) This has nothing to do with p2w, some people will pay others won't that doesn't make the game p2w or not p2w. And there is no need for players to be split because of this.

Pay to win doesn't describe a game where you can only pay to win, games like that won't ever sell good. There is always a way to play that game and go to the end of that game by playing it. It just takes allot longer to complete it without paying and most of the time the experience isn't that good.



I would disagree, an advantage is an advantage when other people do not get to have it. If you buy a fresh set of gear you won't have any advantage over the people running mythic, no, but you will have bought an advantage over the other dude that just leveled his toon and did not pay anything.

It really doesn't matter who is the one that does the selling of power in game, as long as they are sanctioned by the games developers. That it is players selling the loot is no different then blizzard selling it, they approve of this (its hard not to, that is true) but because you can buy the gold, this is what makes it p2w. If you could only get gold by playing the game then this would not be p2w.

You have seen other people question the wording too.
That is the point, you have had to clarify in extra posts, which shows the problem.
You just cant do what I ask.

There is no other explanation for the repeated refusal.

You are just so determined to keep up with the petty blizzard bashing, that you avoid doing the very thing that will show you have no argument, actually putting together a definition which will be ripped apart.

You keep claiming I am wrong, but refuse to do the one thing which would prove that.

[Deleted]

You have seen other people question the wording too.
That is the point, you have had to clarify in extra posts, which shows the problem.
You just cant do what I ask.

There is no other explanation for the repeated refusal.

You are just so determined to keep up with the petty blizzard bashing, that you avoid doing the very thing that will show you have no argument, actually putting together a definition which will be ripped apart.

You keep claiming I am wrong, but refuse to do the one thing which would prove that.

Yes i have seen that, and it makes no difference at all, what we call this is "call to authority fallacy".
Again, you keep bringing up platitudes.

Again, i have done what you have asked, paying cash to get an in game advantage still stands.

Again this post has absolutely nothing to do with what i've said, you just keep attacking me. So you have ripped nothing apart.

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I feel like I'm talking to wall here. My 5 year old autistic grandson understands logic more than you.

Mods asleep again??? Or is it okay now for me to bash him back???
I'm guessing its okay then... It sure does explain a lot, the apple didn't fall far it seems.

[ComputerNerd]

Yes i have seen that, and it makes no difference at all, what we call this is "call to authority fallacy".
Again, you keep bringing up platitudes.

Again, i have done what you have asked, paying cash to get an in game advantage still stands.

Again this post has absolutely nothing to do with what i've said, you just keep attacking me. So you have ripped nothing apart.

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Mods asleep again??? Or is it okay now for me to bash him back???
I'm guessing its okay then... It sure does explain a lot, the apple didn't fall far it seems.

There is no fallacy.
There is an outright refusal to the one thing that very easily counters much of my argument, my main point.
That you cannot do what was asked.

If you can, do it.
Constant refusal makes it clear you are lying.

And don't be so quick to call on the mods, considering you have called me an idiot, that I required special treatment despite not being the only one with those options, and other comments.
Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

All I have done is point out a refusal to do something I have been told is simple, is obvious.
When the reality is very different.

Your actions alone dictate how successful my argument is.
You either prove or disprove it by your willingness to put together something described as being very easy to do, yet proving very hard to do.

You demanded I provided an opinion based on that definition, and myself and other have pointed out how poor that definition was.
And despite not being the only one, you have singled me out on more than one occasion.
You are a sore loser.

You spend more time arguing I am wrong instead of doing what would prove that.

[Tharkkun]

Yes i have seen that, and it makes no difference at all, what we call this is "call to authority fallacy".
Again, you keep bringing up platitudes.

Again, i have done what you have asked, paying cash to get an in game advantage still stands.

Again this post has absolutely nothing to do with what i've said, you just keep attacking me. So you have ripped nothing apart.

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Mods asleep again??? Or is it okay now for me to bash him back???
I'm guessing its okay then... It sure does explain a lot, the apple didn't fall far it seems.

I made a true statement. My grandson understands things more than what's clearly been explained to you by multiple people. You're using your opinion to argue facts.

[Deathquoi]

My guild boosts a guy every week through NH mythic.
He buys wow tokens from blizzard, sells them for in game gold, and then gives us in game gold to boost all of his characters through mythic raids to gear them up

This is totally legal, and he is getting the best gear in the game.
So yes I say wow is p2w in a round about way

In what way is he winning, though? He has mythic gear. So do you all. Is he better than you? Does he pull more DPS? Is he a better PvPer? How is he "winning"? There's nothing he can do that I, as a player who has never paid for a carry, can't do.