Are rogues under performing right now?

[ripple19]

Correct me if I am wrong, but we are about dead last on cleave and AOE fights unless we get crazy PB procs, and we are probably about number five in single target....? Doesn't seem too good.

[netherflame]

False, rogues are performing very well on almost every fight besides Spellblade, Tich, and Gul'dan. On Tich and Gul'dan they manage to provide excellent utility in order to skirt how raid groups would otherwise be required to deal with debuffs. With the affliction nerfs coming down the pipe rogues are also poised to move up the totem pole.

Additionally there is no requirement that every class should be able to perform well on all fight types, as that would signify a large design problem where you'd have no reason to bring anything but said glass because they lack a weakness. Otherwise you get into a situation like aff locks, fury warriors, and frost DK, where you can stack a raid with those and do pretty good in most situations.

TLDR;
Nothing wrong with rogues, they are very strong overall and its ok that they are weak at aoe since they bring large amounts of utility and single target damage.

[Kildrazien]

Basically every top guild has about 2 rogues in them. They are by no means in a bad spot

[Halobob87]

Correct me if I am wrong, but we are about dead last on cleave and AOE fights unless we get crazy PB procs, and we are probably about number five in single target....? Doesn't seem too good.

No. /10 chars

[ymirsson]

What chart are you looking at? And how does that chart relate to your actual gaming experience?

[Tojara]

Highly competitive ST in a tier where AoE/Cleave really doesn't matter. Might appear higher in ST overall if they weren't relegated to special tasks on a few encounters.

They also still have the best defensive abilities in the game as an entire package, and are typically one of the last players alive on any individual encounter/wipe. People overlook defensive capability so much and rogues have plenty of that.

Nearly every guild runs like 2 of them.

[Creamz]

Rogues are good for progress and bad for farming, like it was since wotlk.

[shaunika123]

Basically every top guild has about 2 rogues in them. They are by no means in a bad spot

that's becauase we were OP in 7.1.5

in 7.2 we're really mediocre

of course our survival is still excellent(which is why we're taken to every fight, to cheese mechanics) but our damage is lacking even in pure ST (where we used to be kings, now at least 4-5 classes outperform us)

[Master Guns]

Rogues are good for progress and bad for farming, like it was since wotlk.

Can you explain why rogues are "bad for farming", whatever that means?

[Nekroman]

Nightstalker and fan of knives are amazing for farm content. Throw on belt and cloak and hunger of the pack/bear tartare and its broken good.

[Critical92]

Nightstalker and fan of knives are amazing for farm content. Throw on belt and cloak and hunger of the pack/bear tartare and its broken good.

He doesn't mean farm mobs for mats, etc. He means bosses on farm and only outlaw can be critical because no good roll at the start and you are last on a 2-3 min max fight.
Assa can burst very good and only drops a little bit when the fight ends between cd lineups.
Sub can spend all its shd charges and doesn't have to play around them. It maybe doesn't do the assa burst but sub can stay on its damage for a good amount of time.
Outlaw is totaly luck dependant in short fights. God roll at the start and you are top, no good roll and you are flop.

[Won7on]

Can you explain why rogues are "bad for farming", whatever that means?

Compare our rankings on Mythic fights vs the corresponding Heroic fights. Pretty much every Heroic fight, we'll be 4-5 places lower. This is because as mechanics get easier/more forgiving and less movement is required, other classes start to pull ahead of us. Casters go from moving for mechanics immediately to letting a cast finish. Melee go from "run away for lethal mechanic" to "facetank it". Fights get shorter, giving a bump to classes that benefit from Hero more than us (i.e. everyone).

[RobertMugabe]

He doesn't mean farm mobs for mats, etc. He means bosses on farm and only outlaw can be critical because no good roll at the start and you are last on a 2-3 min max fight.
Assa can burst very good and only drops a little bit when the fight ends between cd lineups.
Sub can spend all its shd charges and doesn't have to play around them. It maybe doesn't do the assa burst but sub can stay on its damage for a good amount of time.
Outlaw is totaly luck dependant in short fights. God roll at the start and you are top, no good roll and you are flop.

Due to loaded dice and the 4-set tier bonus this isn't the case anymore, like you're guaranteed to have good rolls and keep doing great dps no matter what you roll. But yes, before getting these 2, you're right.

[Raiz]

Due to loaded dice and the 4-set tier bonus this isn't the case anymore, like you're guaranteed to have good rolls and keep doing great dps no matter what you roll. But yes, before getting these 2, you're right.

I'm a newb when it comes to rogues, but how exactly is the 4set tier bonus helping for rolls ? Does it apply for rolls instead of run through aswell ?

[Deleted]

Correct me if I am wrong, but we are about dead last on cleave and AOE fights unless we get crazy PB procs, and we are probably about number five in single target....? Doesn't seem too good.

Assasin is constantly at the top...

Outlaw on the other hand has real issues

and really the fucking audacity to complain about PB procs... fucking really

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Due to loaded dice and the 4-set tier bonus this isn't the case anymore, like you're guaranteed to have good rolls and keep doing great dps no matter what you roll. But yes, before getting these 2, you're right.

nope. you still need TB. the trait doesn't help with Jack

[RobertMugabe]

I'm a newb when it comes to rogues, but how exactly is the 4set tier bonus helping for rolls ? Does it apply for rolls instead of run through aswell ?

It doesn't help directly with rolls, but you can get A LOT of free saber slashes(like it does procc very often), which translates to more free energy and more finishing moves, which also means that you are a bit less dependent on what you roll(it might seem minimal at first, but from my own playing experience, it make a noticeable difference)

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Assasin is constantly at the top...

Outlaw on the other hand has real issues

and really the fucking audacity to complain about PB procs... fucking really

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nope. you still need TB. the trait doesn't help with Jack

Well, the chance of getting TB is a lot higher due to this. The point is that since I've gotten this trait I've actually stopped having a big variance in dps(on boss fights). Also overall, my DPS has gained a big boost actually, as I've rarely had a situation in any encounter where I lacked both energy and good rolls(like in EN I had situations where I needed to fish, but also lacked energy, which made my gameplay really slow. The loaded dice buff on the other hand lasts for 45sec, which means that I often have the situation where I get AR, but haven't even used up the loaded dice buff).

On short fights, you don't fish for good rolls anyways, so even there you get a huge dps boost due to guaranteed 2 buffs(and on short fights TB isn't too useful anyways).

Overall, since this patch Outlaw DPS has improved a lot and is practically better (from my experience with playing assa myself and against other rogues) than assassination in ST fights and in AOE fights (this one anyways). The only time where assa rogues get a big dps boost is when they poison bomb, but this doesn't procc often from my experience. That being said, I haven't seen a sub rogue in NH so far, only assa rogues actually (rogues in general are kinda rare).

[Deleted]

It doesn't help directly with rolls, but you can get A LOT of free saber slashes(like it does procc very often), which translates to more free energy and more finishing moves, which also means that you are a bit less dependent on what you roll(it might seem minimal at first, but from my own playing experience, it make a noticeable difference)

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Well, the chance of getting TB is a lot higher due to this. The point is that since I've gotten this trait I've actually stopped having a big variance in dps(on boss fights). Also overall, my DPS has gained a big boost actually, as I've rarely had a situation in any encounter where I lacked both energy and good rolls(like in EN I had situations where I needed to fish, but also lacked energy, which made my gameplay really slow. The loaded dice buff on the other hand lasts for 45sec, which means that I often have the situation where I get AR, but haven't even used up the loaded dice buff).

On short fights, you don't fish for good rolls anyways, so even there you get a huge dps boost due to guaranteed 2 buffs(and on short fights TB isn't too useful anyways).

Overall, since this patch Outlaw DPS has improved a lot and is practically better (from my experience with playing assa myself and against other rogues) than assassination in ST fights and in AOE fights (this one anyways). The only time where assa rogues get a big dps boost is when they poison bomb, but this doesn't procc often from my experience. That being said, I haven't seen a sub rogue in NH so far, only assa rogues actually (rogues in general are kinda rare).

This must come down to legendaries in that case. I have 7 of them.. lacking shoulders, ring and bracers. I still see a minor increase overall but extremly minor.. most issues that will be fixed with 7.2.5 either way.. which will make rerolling for TB even less valuable

[Deleted]

Assassination(Sin) is top-end (aka within top 5 on ST fights), but you have to understand that the other specs Sin competes with, are MILES above Sin in cleave and AOE.
These specs include, but are not limited to, Frost DK, Fury warrior, Demo Lock, Aff Lock, BM Hunter, MM hunter, Havoc DH and Frost mage.
Out of these contestants Frost DK, Fury warrior, Aff Lock, BM Hunter and DH completely destroys Assassination on cleave fights. It's not even funny.

Also, the only reason we are even on the meter in the first place, is Agonizing Poison, which enables good scaling for the spec.
For comparison, my rogue (918 eq ilvl) gains 25 dps pr. mastery point, 18 pr. vers point, 14 pr. crit point and 10 pr. haste point.
A DH of equivalent ilvl gains 30 dps pr. crit point, 26-28 pr. mastery point, and above 20 dps pr. point for both haste and vers.
As you see, DH will (and does) outscale assassination by insanely much.
So far, few changes have been made to DH, meanwhile they are going to attempt removing Sin scaling.

The other rogue specs scale worse than Sin in almost every way. Especially Outlaw (due to passive crit, energy and attack speed from buffs, among other things).

But surely tomb has a soak mechanic, where we can use feint, don't you think?

Incoming people who say Sin is OP, but haven't considered the fact that this spec is quite similar in ST dmg to the aforementioned classes, but COMPLETELY and UTTERLY useless in any kind of cleave scenario; for example mythic+ dungeons. - Ok, useless is a stretch, but compared to these other classes, you might as well just afk on trash packs. I've defaulted to outlaw in m+ for the time being, and it performs quite decent, assuming you get rolls.

So basically, unless this AP replacement is not happening, or if it's a really good nuke ability that does both good ST and AOE dmg, then assassination is probably in the gutter for Tomb of Sargeras.

[RobertMugabe]

This must come down to legendaries in that case. I have 7 of them.. lacking shoulders, ring and bracers. I still see a minor increase overall but extremly minor.. most issues that will be fixed with 7.2.5 either way.. which will make rerolling for TB even less valuable

Oh well, I have ring and shoulders. Dunno how much they contribute the "better" gameplay though. Maybe the 100% crit from the shoulders contributes to the increased amount of free SS.

But yeah, I am really excited for 7.2.5. The energy overflow and energy droughts are still there.

[Deleted]

Oh well, I have ring and shoulders. Dunno how much they contribute the "better" gameplay though. Maybe the 100% crit from the shoulders contributes to the increased amount of free SS.

But yeah, I am really excited for 7.2.5. The energy overflow and energy droughts are still there.

They grant you around 100k dps per item.