Is Odyn evil?

[purebalance]

Yes he somewhat is, but then again Sylvanas isn't good either and she is warchief, the ebon blade etc.

What has she done that is evil?

[huth]

So he murdered his daughter and made her undead for amusement purposes?

If you want to beat up strawmen, you can do that in your Order Hall. No need to waste our time.

[Zephre]

He wasn't entirely wrong about the dragon aspects though, alexstraza is the only one who hasn't gone bad shit crazy yet. He's not evil, he does what has to be done to safeguard the world no matter the cost, he's like Illidan pretty much but less edgy.

[purebalance]

Well, he wasn't wrong to distrust the Aspects. Malygos went mad, Nozdormu went insane upon seeing his death and tried to undo it by f***ing with the timelines, Ysera got herself corrupted (it was a fast strike, I'll give her that, but still), and Deathwing.. (huh, I just realized we only have 2 Aspects left).

But, hey, hindsight is 20/20.

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I'll give you a hint. A giant flame-bearded man hired assassins to kill them off.

Where is this stated. All other indication given says Skovald and his brothers killed their father and turned on each other and Skovald won and then killed his mother.

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He wasn't entirely wrong about the dragon aspects though, alexstraza is the only one who hasn't gone bad shit crazy yet. He's not evil, he does what has to be done to safeguard the world no matter the cost, he's like Illidan pretty much but less edgy.

Malygos regained his sanity.

Ysera did not go insane, she had a nightmare seed shot into her which probably would have done the same to Odyn.

Nozdormu has yet to go insane technically so due to how time works and our meddling, it's kind of hard to say if that will ever come to pass now being that he's depowered after DS.

[Gaaz]

Firstly, Helya almost lose to a single Valarjar (Ingvar) just because he was wielding weapons empowered by Odyn. She is no way nearly as powerful as Odyn himself. At best, we can only say that she is better than Odyn in a specific magic - the one she and Ra researched from Sargeras' spell to imprison demons - that she used to imprison Odyn (and created the Elemental Plane before that). Alas, it wouldn't work well against the Legion, with Sargeras being their leader or the fact that the demons could just suicide and come back when they are trapped. We need raw power here which Odyn has a lot more than Helya did.

There isn't anything random with Odyn's action. It's not like he turned Helya into a Val'kyr on a whim. He did that for his plan to create the Valarjar to protect Azeroth. He had a specific purpose and knew how to do it. Additionally, as discussed before, assassination - which I assume you are referring to Skovald's family - has nothing to do with "valor" that Odyn is obsessed with. Valor, as a concept, means (as per dictionaries) having courage in battle or in face of great danger. Any action outside of a battle, a war, or while not being in danger does NOT make you more or less valorous. That's why you have warriors / soldiers in real life who are considered valorous and yet act like jerks outside of war (someone brought the Vikings up, I think that's a good example). Odyn didn't order the death of Skovald's family because he was in danger, neither did he do that because they were in a war with each other. He was just doing what our secret service agents do - remove the threat of the nation (well, in his case, the world). In other words, "valor" has nothing to do there. The act didn't make Odyn less (or more) valorous.

Thirdly, while Odyn might not care much for others' feelings, he didn't do what he did to Helya for his own selfish gain. He did that entirely for the good of Azeroth, as stated in Chronicle. I wouldn't call that a selfish act. I would even like to point out that Helya, like other non-Keeper being in the original Titanforged army, was artificially created to serve / assist the Keepers with their job. It's quite debatable whether Odyn was just forcing her to do what she literally was created for - helping him to protect Azeroth.

Don't get me wrong. Odyn is a jerk. He is also rather vainglorious and elitist in a way, similar to some Greek Gods (or Odin in Norse mythology). However, I'd rather siding with a jerk that I know will be having the same goal of protecting Azeroth as us than someone who is evil at heart, act evil - until her moment of death, and willingly take the Legion side (which means selling off Azeroth, basically) for her own gain. He might turn against us in the future, but so might Helya (in fact, there are more chance for her to do that simply because she hate the living) and that's the future. We are living in the present, if we don't beat the Legion, there isn't a future for us to worry about. That's the same reason why you don't see anyone asking for retribution against LK Bolvar's actions (murdering OUR force and stealing corpses) yet, even though those are a lot worse to us than what Odyn did in the past - because he is also supposedly working to protect Azeroth.

He already had the abilities to create valarjar en masse. As well as Valkyr. I mean, there are tons of them all over stormheim.
As I said above, demon hunters should, at the very least, be the same as Skovald's family by Odyn's standards. They are fel corrupted in body and have a fel corrupted soul. When are we to expect purges then? Also, Odyn was quite OK with Scovald being fel corrupted it seems - he allowed him to just walts in to the Halls of Valor to battle for his amusement, and basically did nothing but nosepick in the process. If such a powerful being was even remotely interested in Skovald's demise, one would expect at least SOME action from him (like slapping him silly into a mush with a couple of hits)
As for defence of Azeroth narrative - same reasoning and methods as employed by the Lich King or Illidan before he was imprisoned. Hypocritical narrative at best.
Helya actions are logical and can be explained. She acted out of grief, pain and desire for revenge. Perfectly understandable reaction. Something that can be bargained around. Odyn is a monkey with a hand granade in the most optimistic scenario.

[Qualia]

He already had the abilities to create valarjar en masse. As well as Valkyr. I mean, there are tons of them all over stormheim.
As I said above, demon hunters should, at the very least, be the same as Skovald's family by Odyn's standards. They are fel corrupted in body and have a fel corrupted soul. When are we to expect purges then? Also, Odyn was quite OK with Scovald being fel corrupted it seems - he allowed him to just walts in to the Halls of Valor to battle for his amusement, and basically did nothing but nosepick in the process. If such a powerful being was even remotely interested in Skovald's demise, one would expect at least SOME action from him (like slapping him silly into a mush with a couple of hits)
As for defence of Azeroth narrative - same reasoning and methods as employed by the Lich King or Illidan before he was imprisoned. Hypocritical narrative at best.
Helya actions are logical and can be explained. She acted out of grief, pain and desire for revenge. Perfectly understandable reaction. Something that can be bargained around. Odyn is a monkey with a hand granade in the most optimistic scenario.

Odyn needed the Val'kyr to ferry the soul of dead Vrykul from Shadowlands back to life in order to create the Valarjar. He couldn't, and can't create the Valarjar en masse by himself. There are a lot of Val'kyr now (obviously, it has been more than 10 thousand years after all), but originally, no Vrykul volunteered to become one. So when Odyn turned Helya into a Val'kyr, his plan to protect Azeroth actually couldn't start because he had 0 Val'kyr. Not only Helya refused to help him, she also threatened to drop the HoV back to Ulduar. That's why Odyn did what he did, secured him a Val'kyr to start his plan to protect Azeroth. There isn't anything random about it - it's not like he unnecessarily turned Helya into a Val'kyr on a whim.

In regards to the DH, while they have Fel in both body and soul, they are working to protect Azeroth. Odyn doesn't seem to really hate someone or something just because he / she / it carry the Fel taint. He didn't assassinate Skovald's family because they carry Fel, he did that because one of them was supposed to become a foe in a future war with the "burning foes" (Burning Legion). He hates someone that threaten Azeroth's safety, which is very understandable given that his job is to protect the world. In Skovald's case, it's very possible that Odyn was bound by the same magic that prevented Helya from keeping us in Helheim, one that seems to force them to follow the rule of their challange and Skovald was doing his challenge (just in a bad way), after all. The challenge only ended at the very end of the chain after we obtained the Aegis, and Skovald wouldn't likely to be able to beat us anyway. We don't know that Odyn wouldn't just destroy Skovald if he had won against us, or if we weren't around.

How is protecting Azeroth a "hypocritical narrative"? Please elaborate upon this, since I don't really see what was so hypocritical about it. And you should realize that something understandable doesn't mean it can be bargained around. Sargeras' actions are actually perfectly understandable. KJ's actions are understandable as well. They are sane being with their own line of reasoning. That didn't mean we could "try to bargain around" that.

[Auxis]

Where is this stated. All other indication given says Skovald and his brothers killed their father and turned on each other and Skovald won and then killed his mother.

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Malygos regained his sanity.

Ysera did not go insane, she had a nightmare seed shot into her which probably would have done the same to Odyn.

Nozdormu has yet to go insane technically so due to how time works and our meddling, it's kind of hard to say if that will ever come to pass now being that he's depowered after DS.

He killed the family he was born into. Odyn ordered assassins to take out the family he sired (wife, kids). Source is Eyir straight up tells it to Sigryn when she demands the truth during several of the hidden artifact quests (God-Queen's Fury pre-quests).

[nothingsjim]

It's not just Odyn, we've been force-fed morally questionable NPCs (Who're on our side), as well as flat out EVIL ARTIFACT for the whole expansion so far.

The first and most obvious one is the poster boy of this expansion aka Illidan. Who cares he enslaved the Broken, created Fel Orc, control the limited water supply of Outland, as long as he's fighting Legion he's good right?

Second there's Odyn...not gonna go in depth since this thread already explained enough.

Then there's Bolvar ala the new Lich King. Attacking the Alliance, the Horde and Silverhand to raise the dead, attack Ruby Sanctum to raise more Frostwyrms. I mean, it's just the Lich King gathering more undead army, what could possibly go wrong?

And then we have a certain friendly Shaman Cow whose name I won't spoil here. You recruit her as your follower in 7.2, under the principle of "Keep your enemies closer"...ya right.

For evil Artifacts, we can start with Xal'atath, followed by every single Death Knight and Warlock Artifact, followed by the "Balance of Power" Quest Chain where you literally channel the power of Nightmare and Fel into your weapon to empower it. Sure, we are using them for a good cause now, but so is Arthas when he first took up Frostmourne, and look at how good that end.

If WoW is an RTS, or a single player game like Diablo, half of our hero would have fallen or be corrupted after the game end, like the original Rogue and Mage in Diablo. Since it's an MMO, that's impossible, but I still really look forward to see what Blizz can pull off storywise in the future, as limiting as the nature of MMO is.

[Kellorion]

Somewhat omnipotent omniscient arrogant douchebag, but not evil.

[Magnagarde]

Arrogant, egocentric, narcissistic? Yeah. While these are not necessarily good traits to have, he is nowhere near evil though. He is within the spectrum of chaotic good.

[Gaaz]

Odyn needed the Val'kyr to ferry the soul of dead Vrykul from Shadowlands back to life in order to create the Valarjar. He couldn't, and can't create the Valarjar en masse by himself. There are a lot of Val'kyr now (obviously, it has been more than 10 thousand years after all), but originally, no Vrykul volunteered to become one. So when Odyn turned Helya into a Val'kyr, his plan to protect Azeroth actually couldn't start because he had 0 Val'kyr. Not only Helya refused to help him, she also threatened to drop the HoV back to Ulduar. That's why Odyn did what he did, secured him a Val'kyr to start his plan to protect Azeroth. There isn't anything random about it - it's not like he unnecessarily turned Helya into a Val'kyr on a whim.

In regards to the DH, while they have Fel in both body and soul, they are working to protect Azeroth. Odyn doesn't seem to really hate someone or something just because he / she / it carry the Fel taint. He didn't assassinate Skovald's family because they carry Fel, he did that because one of them was supposed to become a foe in a future war with the "burning foes" (Burning Legion). He hates someone that threaten Azeroth's safety, which is very understandable given that his job is to protect the world. In Skovald's case, it's very possible that Odyn was bound by the same magic that prevented Helya from keeping us in Helheim, one that seems to force them to follow the rule of their challange and Skovald was doing his challenge (just in a bad way), after all. The challenge only ended at the very end of the chain after we obtained the Aegis, and Skovald wouldn't likely to be able to beat us anyway. We don't know that Odyn wouldn't just destroy Skovald if he had won against us, or if we weren't around.

How is protecting Azeroth a "hypocritical narrative"? Please elaborate upon this, since I don't really see what was so hypocritical about it. And you should realize that something understandable doesn't mean it can be bargained around. Sargeras' actions are actually perfectly understandable. KJ's actions are understandable as well. They are sane being with their own line of reasoning. That didn't mean we could "try to bargain around" that.

Ehm... numerous demon hunters turning to Legion is considered protecting Azeroth now? How is that different from Skovald's family? This is one of the most hypicritical narratives on Blizzard's part, when it comes to Odyn. Demon hunters, with fel corrupted bodies and souls - good. Despite the fact that a number of them willingly joined Legion and others were "decieved" to join. Nightbourne - good, despite the fact that their leader Elisande was a very strong ally to the Legion (the number of rebels was minor compared to those that supported, or at the very least not opposed her). Yet, Skovald's family is bad and deserve to be killed. All and each of them for the same exact reason of affiliation by proximity and Collective Punishment. All done in the off chance that some prophecy about Skovald's bloodline would be true and one of them would become Odyn's enemy. By the same logic he should just wipe all Draenei and Orcs from existance. Velen in particular, as he is one of the more powerful characters in the game right now and is extremely unstable due to death of his son (legion general by the way), who was killed in the Exodar invasion by players. Same goes for Illidan. I hope I am not the only one seeing how ends do not meet here. Siding with Odyn defies logic. That, and him being based on a god of trickery in the northern mythology is worrysome at best.

Arrogant, egocentric, narcissistic? Yeah. While these are not necessarily good traits to have, he is nowhere near evil though. He is within the spectrum of chaotic good.

More like chaotic neutral. I do not think that chaotic good characters tend to send assasins after someones realtives on the offchance that some prophesy may come true and one of them turns to evil. And that, if we are talking about D&D setting, is the most dangerous and volatile combination of all. Rorschach from the Watchers comes to mind as a prime example.

[Aucald]

When it comes to Odyn and the other Keepers I think the "god problem" is often in evidence. To them the mortal races of Azeroth are probably like small animals are to us - rats or raccoons, perhaps even a collection of smaller insects. We don't spend much time considering the feelings of termites or ants in our houses, after all; we stamp them out where we have to without too much thought. Odyn's "evil" often strikes me a relative aspect of that - he doesn't see us as individual entities that have earned the right to exist in our own regard. To him we are still things which should bend to his will, go where they told to go, do what they are told to do. Helya was in the same boat as well - despite her relative closeness to Odyn she was still a tool in his mind, something that's existence was meant to serve a goal or as means to an end.

Odyn might also be surprised by the power of lesser entities acting in concert, just like we as humans are on some occasions.

[yetgdhfgh]

No he is just a bored demigod who gets off watching us jump through hoops!

[Lochton]

Betraying Helya and killing her and turning her into a fallen Val'kyr, deeming the dragon aspects incompetent, trying to kill Skovald entire family in cold blood all the while talking about valor.

Why do warriors follow him again?

He's not really evil, he's.. Freelance?

Had it with the titan shit, took a piece of Ulduar and went on his own.

[Fabinas]

He's a narrow-minded, pompous, retarded piece of shit, who uses no more than 50 words to express himself. Examples: trial, strength, valor, honour etc.

[yetgdhfgh]

He killed the family he was born into. Odyn ordered assassins to take out the family he sired (wife, kids). Source is Eyir straight up tells it to Sigryn when she demands the truth during several of the hidden artifact quests (God-Queen's Fury pre-quests).

I just did that questline tonight and damn was that fucked up though why didnt Eyir just lie and just say 'Erm it was Erm Gul'dan or erm Gul'dans brother or something' Instead she tells the truth and fucks everything up and now i gotta pound her ass in that shitty chally mode!

[Deleted]

Mentioned my opinion earlier but since brought up :
Isnt the whole situation in HoV truly weird ? I mean Odyn casually dropping the shield to us. Then Skovald runs casually in (!!!!) and starts chatting (!!!!!) with Odyn telling him that he is also a valid candidate for the shield like a cheated wife. Odyn just tells him that we appeared first like it was a first come first serve situation(!!!!). Then allows Skovald to go all out against players in front of him. Then Odyn kinda amazed by the outcome of the battle (he basically expected us to die there!!!!!!) comes down to give as a final trial. Even more weird is that while fighting Odyn valkyrs come and pick us up taking us out of combat whereas when fighting the fel stained skovald Odyn casually lets champions die.

[yetgdhfgh]

He has watched so many 'Warriors' die that he needs something special to get him off these days!

[FuxieDK]

I wouldn't call Odyn evil, not even close..
Somewhere between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Good.

Thanks, didn't know that. never played a warrior

It's not a Warrior thing...

You get that quest line as DemoLock and UHDK (possibly other classes/specs too) when you empower your weapon (after 35 traits)..

[Deleted]

i'm in doubt about Odyn, but you should never trust friendly old man with a beard