Tinkers In Our Future?

[Ielenia]

Well look at WoW; Mages, Priests, Shaman and Warlocks know spells before they ever go to a trainer. Monks know Tiger Palm before they meet their trainer. Every class at least knows one skill from the very beginning of the game.

Why is it a problem for a Goblin or Gnome to start the game already knowing an engineering ability?

You went around really fast from "they need no knowledge" to "they need knowledge". Huh.

[Teriz]

You went around really fast from "they need no knowledge" to "they need knowledge". Huh.

I believe I said that they have innate knowledge, just like every other WoW class.

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I feel like this reasoning got swept aside because there was no logical counter to it.

Engineers are to Tinkers as Mac is to PC. There you go. To the layman, they're both computers with very similar functions and can achieve a lot of the same goals, but each requires its own education/training separate from the other. Now, since somebody who knows how to build a mac could more quickly learn to build a PC, give the tinker class an innate bonus of some kind (like +5) if they also take the engineering profession. Or, allow them to use engineering equipment without the profession as a requirement.

I doubt that they would do that. At most, Blizzard could just give them a passive bonus towards engineering, like a +15 or 20 or something.

[Ielenia]

I believe I said that they have innate knowledge, just like every other WoW class.

... Do you even know what "innate" means? It means "born with". No one is "born" already knowing their craft.

[-Joker-]

You don't disenchant weapons as a Death Knight. The weapon's original magic is unaffected. Lore-wise, you simply engrave runes upon the blade, from which you use to power your abilities (lore-wise, it seems a DK cannot use their abilities without it).

Obviously you know very little about DKs. They essentially shred a rusty sword and remake it into a runed soulblade. The two swords look nothing alike before and after the reforging. The very heart of enchanting is stripping something down and either making it into something else (like imbued cloth) or using it to enhance a weapon or gear. Also, when you enchant a DK weapon, you lose the Runeforge which means they occupy the same space and serve the same purpose.

These two processes are very similar, yet have no interaction or boundary crossing with one another. A mech pilot who uses a suit and has mounted weapons is nothing like a stealthed rogue tossing some dynamite and wearing some clever looking goggles. That's like saying a tank and a ford are the same thing since they both use gas and you drive them.

As for Tinkers, I think there is proof enough just in the Warcraft Universe to show what a Tinker can do far exceeds what a basic Engineer is capable of. We might be able to build the Sky Golem, but the most dangerous thing we can get it to do is harvest herbs. If that mount had weapons, a shield, and could be used in combat, I might see your point.

[-Joker-]

... Do you even know what "innate" means? It means "born with". No one is "born" already knowing their craft.

Are you familiar with the term Prodigy... like a musical prodigy who sits down to a piano for their first time and can fully replicate the sound of music they just listened to? You might want to research your examples before using them. You are certainly the furthest thing from a subject matter expert.

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How do you visualize that gameplay? Placing mechanical robots and they are kill-able? How many of them you can place? 1 or 5? What?

Probably similar to how the mechanical pets set out mines, or turrets.

[Teriz]

... Do you even know what "innate" means? It means "born with". No one is "born" already knowing their craft.

Yet every other WoW class starts the game with an innate ability before they ever see a trainer.

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Are you familiar with the term Prodigy... like a musical prodigy who sits down to a piano for their first time and can fully replicate the sound of music they just listened to? You might want to research your examples before using them. You are certainly the furthest thing from a subject matter expert.

And this.

[-Joker-]

Yet every other WoW class starts the game with an innate ability before they ever see a trainer.

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And this.

Precisely. As far as gameplay is concerned, you still start with a spell or two for your class, meaning your character is born into WoW with at least some knowledge of the path you are on. It has to be that way for Gameplay. People need to understand that Gameplay > Lore every single time.

[Lodreh]

Tinker - Mail - Guns, Crossbows - Goblins, Gnomes

Sapper - DPS - Turrets, bomblings, clockwork, Engineering - Torbjorn/ Junkrat
Pilot - Tank - Mecha vehicles, Flame Leviathan, Shredder, Mechano-tank - D.Va
Medic - Heal - Alchemical injectors, Bandages, Alchemy (-Transmutation) - Ana

[In Ogres We Trust]

Condescension aside, there is no reason for ANY lore restriction to exist anymore. Reasons why:

- We've worked side by side with the Horde for YEARS now. At times, we've even worked FOR them (Thrall during most of Cataclysm). It makes no sense why a Night Elf can't go and live among the Tauren in Mulgore, or a Goblin set on making money can't open a shop in Stormwind. The Darkmoon Faire, Twilight's Hammer, and a half dozen other factions already prove that the races/classes/factions from BOTH sides are capable of intermingling and working together. In Goldshire, when the faire is here, there is a Blood Elf fire tossing with a Draenei at the portal. This is a place run by a GNOME, who has an Ogre for a body guard, a Forsaken as the Welcoming Committee and every race working for him, including non-playables.

- Broken Lore Race/Class combos have existed forever, and most of them are Forsaken. Hunters commune with nature and animals. Undead have no ties to nature. Holy Priests go through tremendous torment when channeling holy light, and are bound to die from critical use. Yet, we have Undead Holy Priests (and I call bullshit on the 'they use shadow magic' since the gameplay is tied to the lore and the spells used are holy). Mishka who is a medic for SI:7 is Draenei, and according to all of her attacks, and her required classification to be a part of SI:7, is a ROGUE.



Sir Zeliek was a paladin, turned undead, and raised as a DK. As a Paladin, you are IMMUNE to that curse and those effects. You are protected by the light. Yet here we have a Forsaken Paladin.



And my personal favorite, Leonid Barthalomew. The forsaken Paladin who is a part of the Silver Hand and stands guard in Zul Drak. While he does have Cleave as an attack, he's also a member of a Paladin's org and is fighting side by side with Tirion at the Battle of Light's Hope, and the light used in battle does not affect him.



I get that people like you feel the urge to remain stuck in the past, and have no desire to see the natural progression of events on Azeroth. There are SO MANY lore breaking moments already written into the game, but it is easier to explain them away, or turn a blind eye to them.

And, the best part is... it makes SENSE to break the lore. Let me show you. Meet Prospector Anvilward. He is a spy, hanging out in Eversong Woods and chatting with a Blood Elf. Dwarves and Elves do not trust one another, yet here we have a Blood Elf (the worst kind) consorting with a Dwarf... willingly.



There is not a single, solitary, logical, substantial reason why Tinkers should not exist, nor why every Race/Class/Faction should not be unlocked this late in the game. I get that you and your kind feel the need to desperately cling to the lore, but most of the lore was re-written with Cataclysm and continues to be every time there is a new patch.

Tinkers fit and there isn't a single argument that could convince me otherwise. I am for MORE playable options, not fewer simply because some vocal minority still thinks Vanilla was the best WoW yet.

Draenei rogues exist within the lore.
Leonid is a warrior; he's not a paladin.
Sir Zeliek is a member of the Scourge, controlled by the Lich King, and in constant agony. As the developer's have already pointed out, the Lich King is the only thing keeping him together.
Prospector Anvilward was an Alliance spy that was killed in the Burning Crusade, and the Sin'dorei were - at the time - contemplating rejoining, i.e. this example makes no sense. In fact, Blizzard used him as part of their reasoning as to why the race was on the Horde.

Should Tinkers exist? Yes. Do they exist within the lore? Yes. Should they be limited to gnomes and goblins? Yes. Should every race/class combination within the game be unlocked? No.

[-Joker-]

Pets as companions? Or Pets like hunter pets? I haven't see that as mechanical (hunter style) pets.

Anyway, I think that's going to be mess. Do you kill player, or his turrets(gadgets)? For PvE, that's fine.

Like the battle pets, and think of the turrets like totems. You can kill totems before killing players. This would work the same way as a healing stream totem. It only has so much health and can be targeted. It's a very basic concept and you people are just over thinking it.

[Teriz]

Pets as companions? Or Pets like hunter pets? I haven't see that as mechanical (hunter style) pets.

Anyway, I think that's going to be mess. Do you kill player, or his turrets(gadgets)? For PvE, that's fine.

I'm more inclined to believe that a turret would work like a Shaman totem: A stationary weapon that you need to choose to take down.

I'd also think it would be cool if Blizzard implemented the "scrap" system from HotS, where if your device/robot is destroyed or expires, it leaves behind scrap that you can collect and it restores mana and reduces cooldowns.

[Ielenia]

Are you familiar with the term Prodigy... like a musical prodigy who sits down to a piano for their first time and can fully replicate the sound of music they just listened to? You might want to research your examples before using them. You are certainly the furthest thing from a subject matter expert.

Try again when you find an example of someone who can build a computer from scratch, while knowing nothing about electronics.

Also, a "prodigy" is someone who has a much easier time understanding (and/or executing) a certain subject. Not one who was born knowing things already.

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Yet every other WoW class starts the game with an innate ability before they ever see a trainer.

They don't, since nothing says they are. I mean, it's not our characters didn't have PAST, y'know?

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Obviously you know very little about DKs. They essentially shred a rusty sword and remake it into a runed soulblade.

You are making stuff up, here. At no point it's ever said that the original weapon is destroyed and remade into a different one. Even the Runeforging skill's tooltip says different: "Allows the Death Knight to emblazon their weapon with runes."

[Teriz]

They don't, since nothing says they are. I mean, it's not our characters didn't have PAST, y'know?

Uh, the fact that you need to seek out a trainer when you start the game (after already having a class ability) kind of says they are.

[Ielenia]

Uh, the fact that you need to seek out a trainer when you start the game (after already having a class ability) kind of says they are.

So... is that how reality works for you? People already know everything and they just visit teaches to say 'hello'? Do you honestly believe that, before we, as players, take the reigns, our characters had no prior training at all?

[Thimagryn]

So... is that how reality works for you? People already know everything and they just visit teaches to say 'hello'? Do you honestly believe that, before we, as players, take the reigns, our characters had no prior training at all?

Not in reality, but by the standards set by the game, yes, that's how it works. You choose the class you play from the start and can't change that after the fact. The game's logic does not support the lore of being an empty vessel that is able to learn any number of 'jobs' or become anything they want to be. That would be the game logic behind FF11/14.

If you stand by lore, then lore only supports this game logic. You don't start as any other class type with previous experience, or even start as a blanket 'adventurer'. You are literally the class that you chose at the start of the game and that's what you are defined as for the rest of that character's life. Even Paladin lore is about Priests who take up martial training, but your character does not have this background at all. They start as a Paladin in training from the very beginning.

[Ielenia]

Not in reality, but by the standards set by the game, yes, that's how it works. You choose the class you play from the start and can't change that after the fact. The game's logic does not support the lore of being an empty vessel that is able to learn any number of 'jobs' or become anything they want to be. That would be the game logic behind FF11/14.

If you stand by lore, then lore only supports this game logic. You don't start as any other class type with previous experience, or even start as a blanket 'adventurer'. You are literally the class that you chose at the start of the game and that's what you are defined as for the rest of that character's life. Even Paladin lore is about Priests who take up martial training, but your character does not have this background at all. They start as a Paladin in training from the very beginning.

... Do you even know what it's being argued, here? Or did you just chose my latest post and replied to it as if it existed in a vacuum?

[Teriz]

So... is that how reality works for you? People already know everything and they just visit teaches to say 'hello'? Do you honestly believe that, before we, as players, take the reigns, our characters had no prior training at all?

In reality? No.

In a video game where characters start off with abilities before they ever see a trainer (and learn abilities automatically as they gain levels)?

Yes.

[Ielenia]

In reality? No.

In a video game where characters start off with abilities before they ever see a trainer (and learn abilities automatically as they gain levels)?

Yes.

You're actually insane, if you actually believe that our characters, in the lore, have no past, coming into the world already an adult (for some reason) and already knowing everything an adult should know, as if created by divine inspiration.

[Thimagryn]

... Do you even know what it's being argued, here? Or did you just chose my latest post and replied to it as if it existed in a vacuum?

Isn't that what you do too?

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You're actually insane, if you actually believe that our characters, in the lore, have no past, coming into the world already an adult (for some reason) and already knowing everything an adult should know, as if created by divine inspiration.

... That's exactly how our characters come into being though. We have no past except what we create for them, and our characters know everything they know regardless of what you think the lore actually says about them. The lore doesn't explain this stuff, so there's honestly no reason to look to lore for these answers. These are our avatars. They are what we choose them to be.

[Ielenia]

... That's exactly how our characters come into being though. We have no past except what we create for them, and our characters know everything they know regardless of what you think the lore actually says about them.

And Marshal McBride, at the Northshire Abbey in, just stands at his post, doing his duty, when an adult human suddenly materializes out of thin air in front of him.

That's totally what happens in the lore, right?