Frost vs Unholy 7.2.5

[Deleted]

They sorta nerfed the bracers so they don't amount to that much of a dps increase as before. The other Unholy legendaries all are about the same. If you look at wacraftlogs, even the KJBW legendary trinket is one of the best legendaries for it. So you'll be quite viable if you have any sort of Unholy legendary. Also, I've been getting a new legendary every 2 weeks on all my characters if I do all the lockout content(normal mythic dungeons, EN, ToV, NH).

No offense but i think you have made ur point about frost. You have literally been spamming this thread about how bad BoS will be for Tomb of Sargeras.

[Deleted]

To be honest I don't believe you. You were claiming the same before Nighthold hit, that the gap will really close and UH might overtake frost even because of clawing shadows and you couldn't be more wrong. Nighthold released and the breath build was probably the best in the tier and unholy was again at the bottom, so nope not again.

jeah i agrued with that guy all the time and he tried to tell us that uh is gonna be better then frost in nh ofc you cant trust him.
But on the otherside he can only be 50% cause it can only be frost or UH
Big part of his nonsense Talk was because he is a casual and trying to tell people what to play competitive
But his Simming was top notch

But seeing right now, and my testing i think UH can really be the best spec to go in TOS.

[Deleted]

Why is it important to predict now whats better?

There is no qualified opinion yet (LOL at all those dummy testers).

[Wingerie]

Why is it important to predict now whats better?

There is no qualified opinion yet (LOL at all those dummy testers).

I'm mid-core player, 10/10M, not even in top 500 guild, only 40 or so days /played since the launch of the Legion. My guild requires 55 traits by the time ToS launches, and most likely will increase it later. Also they expect me ti switch to the best possible build. I have 55 in frost already, so I now have the choice: keep pumping AP into frost, or get unholy to 55. It's a question of few billions AP. So earlier I know what's the best, the better my AP investments will be.

[RuneDK]

I'm mid-core player, 10/10M, not even in top 500 guild, only 40 or so days /played since the launch of the Legion. My guild requires 55 traits by the time ToS launches, and most likely will increase it later. Also they expect me ti switch to the best possible build. I have 55 in frost already, so I now have the choice: keep pumping AP into frost, or get unholy to 55. It's a question of few billions AP. So earlier I know what's the best, the better my AP investments will be.

Yea, that's crazy to have a requirement on a trait that can never be finished during this expansion. However, I too would like to know for the same reasons...plus I'd like to change my loot spec for legendary purposes as well.

[Deleted]

Why is it important to predict now whats better?

There is no qualified opinion yet (LOL at all those dummy testers).

Better an unqualified opinion than a non existent qualified opinion. If you want results for yourself, get on the PTR. For my gear/trinkets, Unholy is crushing ST by miles and Frost is on par and then some on fights like Sasszine and Harjatan. What gives me doubts about Frost is that it heavily relies on CoF to be played properly and that's a previous tier trinket (Draught anyone?). It will be nerfed faster than you can say "no qualified opinion" if its use remains as high as it is now when we're well into ToS.
Also, if you really don't care or do not want to get influenced, you know where the door is.

[Horrorfang]

I blindly Followed said persons' Guidance for Unholy and found I was doing S*&^ DPS for all of my guild running of Nighthold(which IS limited to heroic mainly) I will CLARIFY IT though. Clawing Shadows is amazing, Its ranged pure shadow damage-Great advice to use if You have and can get mastery gear. I chose to use the information presented to me as a bible and about 90% of it rang true to being a great dps increase and overall quality of playing the spec change. NECROSIS IS CANCER. Weaving IN deathcoils is CANCER. Over the last 3ish weeks I Abandoned NECROSIS and put back on Infected claws to which I had used in prepatch and for Warlords mostly Up til Nighthold. It ties into how the specs use of wounds is supposed to be used. I switched from Ebon Fever/Epidemic to using Bursting Sores/ultimately back to PP since its tied into the Wounds more than Blighted and its not on a 1 minute cooldown or another button to use. Aside from Eli, Scorp, and Trash pulls Epedimic/Ebon Fever alone isn't that great in my experience. My logs are up on World of logs and I see tremendous rotational freedom and flowing. I'm Very glad I ALSO did not jump on the Dark Arbiter train as suggested, I wasn't getting through Eli too often anyways for awhile Nor did Convergence drop more than I think twice in regular looting with my guild group. Everything shared here is and should be taken as it can work , But It may NOT work for you in your gearing, or Ilvl. With the New Bursting Sores Ring- We'll probably see unholy being Aoe Gods. Thats a wall of text but its needed. Don't Hate The Player, Try it out, See what feels better and actually works for your toon. Its still Str, haste up to over 20%ish, and Mastery for my gearing, it affects the majority of Unholy Damage better since More mastery and the speed to belt out the attacks do matter, especially more if You love Clawing Shadows.

[Maxweii]

To be honest I don't believe you. You were claiming the same before Nighthold hit, that the gap will really close and UH might overtake frost even because of clawing shadows and you couldn't be more wrong. Nighthold released and the breath build was probably the best in the tier and unholy was again at the bottom, so nope not again.

Considering that Frost wasn't predicted to be as good as it turned out, it was a good prediction but people forget that when things are set in stone people might guess wrong.

jeah i agrued with that guy all the time and he tried to tell us that uh is gonna be better then frost in nh ofc you cant trust him.
But on the otherside he can only be 50% cause it can only be frost or UH
Big part of his nonsense Talk was because he is a casual and trying to tell people what to play competitive
But his Simming was top notch

But seeing right now, and my testing i think UH can really be the best spec to go in TOS.

You're really not one to talk nor is this really constructive at all.

[Deleted]

Considering that Frost wasn't predicted to be as good as it turned out, it was a good prediction but people forget that when things are set in stone people might guess wrong.



You're really not one to talk nor is this really constructive at all.

my friend you are a really good simcrafter, but you should never give people advices what to play CAUSE you are BIASED as hell.

[RuneDK]

I'll trust at maxweii a lot more than you newer people. The guys has been around for a long time. Also just cause progression isn't 10/10M doesn't mean he's not filled with more knowledge than you. We had a DK years ago who only did normal and knew more about the class as a whole than most.

[Nemesquish]

I'll trust at maxweii a lot more than you newer people. The guys has been around for a long time. Also just cause progression isn't 10/10M doesn't mean he's not filled with more knowledge than you. We had a DK years ago who only did normal and knew more about the class as a whole than most.

While this is mildy true, Most people are going to trust someone who tops logs and kills bosses quickly. As a reverse argument someone who is one of the best at the class just might not be able to articulate it well to words/forums.

[VakeStorm]

While this is mildy true, Most people are going to trust someone who tops logs and kills bosses quickly. As a reverse argument someone who is one of the best at the class just might not be able to articulate it well to words/forums.

Last I check Max has good parses for UH though...

[Nemesquish]

My post wasnt directed at him, rather just the reverse of the situation that was mentioned.

[RuneDK]

You seem to be a fanboy of Frost. No offense, but if you don't like common sense and just wish your favorite spec is still going to be good for fights that will not allow the spec to perform, including a huge nerf to the single most damaging ability, I really don't know what to say. I'm just reporting on my findings.

Man, there is much bias here on mmo champion. I personally would rather play Frost because I can do really good damage on it, but its just not gonna happen. Semi-hardcore 10/10M raider here.

People said frost wouldn't work in nighthold too....you find ways to make it work with fight knowledge. Breath does not need to last for 60+ seconds to be effective.

[RuneDK]

Well I'm fairly sure I wasn't the one who said that, but on that point, Frost actually isn't competitive without BoS if that was what people were talking about.

The only way a breath build would be competitive in ToS is if Blizz decided last moment to undo the nerfs and add better tier bonuses like the ones that were originally in place.

The frost stuff is basically a net neutral if not 1-2% nerf...unholy was 10-20% behind(and didn't receive 10-20% worth of buffs)....I highly doubt it will be substantially better. If anything they will be closer and that's good. give us a choice of what we want to play. Also frost not being competitive without breath is fine, you'll figure the windows out with time in which you can use BoS. As I said, Breath doesn't need to last 60+ seconds to be effective.

Also you're not the end all be all DK on the forums. Stop acting like you're more knowledgeable and better at execution than everyone here.

[Deleted]

Well I'm fairly sure I wasn't the one who said that, but on that point, Frost actually isn't competitive without BoS if that was what people were talking about.

The only way a breath build would be competitive in ToS is if Blizz decided last moment to undo the nerfs and add better tier bonuses like the ones that were originally in place.

Wtf there was a small nerf (about 1%) and it is "undone" by picking higher ilvl relics and T20 being stronger than T19.

I dont know the encounters yet, that's why i said all the time: you need warcraftlog data to get a qualified opinion. Then we could say: unholy works better or worse for boss X and Y.


And really: whichever dk complains about Frost T20 has no clue. Even without any APL optimization, it looks like that (see image below).

So one can see that simply getting T20 (same stats, only set bonuses changed) is a 20k dps gain. And T20 sims at nearly 12% dps increase, which is very very strong. Addtitionally, changing talents (FF (=Freezing Fog) -> Horn of Winter is a dps gain in simc, it might work out that way too.

Just in comparison a very good UH DK (without talent changes, no new legendaries):


I don't know if simc is wrong, but frost T20 seems to be stronger than Unholy T20 from a first look according to Simc.

- - - Updated - - -


And actually, live 7.2 simcraft with unnerfed T19 was 937k. With Horn + T20, my frost dps goes up to 980k... so don't write off frost, considering how strong it currently is. The rumors about frost being nerfed sooo hard, just because current setup (4pT19 + Freezing Fog) goes down from 937k to 926k are really exagerated considering it goes up with talent change + T20 upgrade by > 40k compared to live and 60k compared to 4pT19(@7.2.5)...

I'm mid-core player, 10/10M, not even in top 500 guild, only 40 or so days /played since the launch of the Legion. My guild requires 55 traits by the time ToS launches, and most likely will increase it later. Also they expect me ti switch to the best possible build. I have 55 in frost already, so I now have the choice: keep pumping AP into frost, or get unholy to 55. It's a question of few billions AP. So earlier I know what's the best, the better my AP investments will be.

Lol at your guild. I got 54 frost and 52 unholy and noone is gonna replace me if i choose to play unholy. Performance matters. Not traits.

OR should our raid pick a worse player because he has more traits? :> I'm beating some melees constantly by over 10%, so it doesnt matter whether i got 52 or 55 traits.

[Maxweii]

Unholy isn't updated in simc for 7.2 let alone for 7.2.5. Updates for the APL are in just need to be pushed into it. So comparing it, is entirely silly.

[Deleted]

Exactly. You don't know if simcraft is wrong.

I'm not really sure how to counter argue this because the argument itself contains no actual real data. I'm not even sure if you updated the sims to include 7.2.5 changes.

It doesn't take rocket science to realize you can't keep up Breath from many of the mechanics on mythic. Your sims are based on tank and spank. Even if your numbers are correct and we see a 12% increase, this could easily be lost from the way the fights work.

I'm not sure if you guys realize this, but every tier after the previous one is significantly harder than the last. We are not going to get away with tunneling a boss and dodging a huge beam that you need to side step 3 yards, which is exactly what a breath build is designed for.

I'm really done for right now, some new guys probably gonna come in and whine or put in false data.

Wtf. I downloaded for those sims current simc from TODAY(!!!!!). I am not the simc developer, but at least those sims indicate that every set bonus is implemented and bugs are rare (if they exist).

So your response is pointless. AFAIK T20 looks very promising for frost DKs and even stronger than Unholy set bonuses look. Simc indicates that frost DKs gain a lot of DPS in the transition T19 -> T20, despite of the current nerfs. As some already pointed out, yes the T19 setup was nerfed. But T19 was all about Howling Blast. T20 isn't about Howling Blast so you can pick other relics (so the BR nerf is perhaps completely compensated by the 3% buff to Frost) and T20 is very strong, much stronger than T19 currently.

[spanishninja]

Wtf there was a small nerf (about 1%) and it is "undone" by picking higher ilvl relics and T20 being stronger than T19.

I dont know the encounters yet, that's why i said all the time: you need warcraftlog data to get a qualified opinion. Then we could say: unholy works better or worse for boss X and Y.


And really: whichever dk complains about Frost T20 has no clue. Even without any APL optimization, it looks like that (see image below).

So one can see that simply getting T20 (same stats, only set bonuses changed) is a 20k dps gain. And T20 sims at nearly 12% dps increase, which is very very strong. Addtitionally, changing talents (FF (=Freezing Fog) -> Horn of Winter is a dps gain in simc, it might work out that way too.

Just in comparison a very good UH DK (without talent changes, no new legendaries):


I don't know if simc is wrong, but frost T20 seems to be stronger than Unholy T20 from a first look according to Simc.

- - - Updated - - -


And actually, live 7.2 simcraft with unnerfed T19 was 937k. With Horn + T20, my frost dps goes up to 980k... so don't write off frost, considering how strong it currently is. The rumors about frost being nerfed sooo hard, just because current setup (4pT19 + Freezing Fog) goes down from 937k to 926k are really exagerated considering it goes up with talent change + T20 upgrade by > 40k compared to live and 60k compared to 4pT19(@7.2.5)...



Lol at your guild. I got 54 frost and 52 unholy and noone is gonna replace me if i choose to play unholy. Performance matters. Not traits.

OR should our raid pick a worse player because he has more traits? :> I'm beating some melees constantly by over 10%, so it doesnt matter whether i got 52 or 55 traits.

If you're trying to legitimately use "data" that actually shows unholy t20 being WORSE than t19, I don't know what to say to you dude. Why would that make any sense at all from a design perspective? Just think about it. The other part that is questionable is you assumed no new legendaries or talent changes for unholy in 7.2.5, when it has already been shown that changes in both are going to significantly increase unholy output.

[Deleted]

Sims should only be used as a guide to gearing or talent choices, but should never be used as the holy grail. The same can be said of warcraft logs too. In this expansion its become incredibly difficult to predict my dps outcome on any fight against other frost dks in my guild. So for example on a 2 minute chrono fight, I could optimize my gear for it and push my concordance trait up (57 atm) and have all the good relics, but I could still be out damaged by my fellow frost guildies where RNG has been kinder to them, despite on paper their characters being weaker since they have less blast radius relics, lower ilevel and lower concordance. However, at the same time when RNG is kind to me when we're all whoring dps and adds are involved, I tend to outshine them, occasionally. On heroic farm nights, who comes out on top in initial bursts in the first 30 seconds, varies as well. In long mythic fights (augur) the more aggressive with the least amount of targeted debuffs normally comes out ahead.

So unless we have the same horrendous scenario at the start of 7.1.5 where frost was the number 1 melee spec and unholy being in the dumpster (unholy is now last but you can still pump out reasonable damage and enough to clear mythic content) the current builds and changes to both specs and their respective performance should entirely depend on mechanics, aggressive gameplay with some added good rng to sweeten the kill.