Why do YOU think Healthcare is a Right and not a Privilege?

[GotMoxie]

The thread title is what you THINK X should be. Not what is currently fact. I assume that was the question being posed above as well.

Everyone has the right to healthcare, food, housing, water. Where I come from, basic healthcare is paid for by the people for the people with other charges as necessary.

[Mistame]

The thread title is what you THINK X should be. Not what is currently fact. I assume that was the question being posed above as well.

No, it's not. It's, "Why do you think it is one or the other?" And even in your assumption that couldn't be the case as something that exists at the expense of others cannot be a right.

Everyone has the right to healthcare, food, housing, water. Where I come from, basic healthcare is paid for by the people for the people with other charges as necessary.

If you mean no one can be denied the opportunity to purchase those things, sure. But they don't they have the "right" to have those things given to them for free. That's not what a right is. No one is entitled to anything that belongs to someone else. The basic healthcare system you refer to is not an example of a "right", it's an example of a societal benefit.

[GotMoxie]

Not interested in splitting hairs. You have fun though.

[Mistame]

You're no longer allowed to use roads, police, or garbage collection. My taxes pay for parts of those services, and since those parts belong to me, you need my permission to use them.

None of those things are rights. They're privileges and/or societal benefits. Also, none of those even partially belong to you because "your" taxes aren't even yours. Not to mention that the taxes I pay go towards them as well. Maybe try to form a coherent argument next time?

Don't bother replying. Do bother actually shutting the fuck up and using your brain for once.

Or you could learn how words and/or context work.

[Jinpachi]

Interesting argument and quite wrong. They are already forced to perform their services should someone show up in an Emergency Room regardless if they can pay or not. Basically in situations where the individual cannot afford their treatment the taxpayers are already paying the doctor for the forced service at a much higher rate than had that individual be covered by a Universal Healthcare plan.

The very concept of the Hippocratic Oath is in effect here. Failure to act on a patient due to inability to pay is harmful and not something most physicians want to gain a reputation for.

1. Most doctors actually do NOT take the hippocratic oath.

2. It's not legally binding.

3. If they did swear to it, this is what they swear to...

I swear by Apollo the physician, and Asclepius, and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses as my witnesses that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this covenant . . . to teach them this art . . . without fee or covenant.

I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients . . . and I will do no harm or injustice to them.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give a woman an abortive remedy.

I will not use the knife. . .

Whatever houses I may visit, I will . . . remain[] free of sexual relations with both female and male persons . . .

What I may see or hear in the course of treatment . . . I will keep to myself.

If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, begin honored . . . . if I transgress is and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

Did I mention that any oath they take isn't legally binding? It's a moral and ethical guideline, NOT a contract. So I'll say it again, NO, you are NOT entitled to the fruits of my labor.

- - - Updated - - -

You're no longer allowed to use roads, police, or garbage collection. My taxes pay for parts of those services, and since those parts belong to me, you need my permission to use them.

Don't bother replying. Do bother actually shutting the fuck up and using your brain for once.

Dead wrong. They do not belong to you in any shape or form. You are required to pay taxes, it's not voluntary. Roads, and Police are public works. Garbage collection, at least where im from, is a private business. Public works are for the benefit of the public, taxpayer or not. I think the only one that should bother shutting the fuck up is you.

[Captain N]

-Snip-.

There was nothing about it being legally binding ever mentioned by me. You said that you cannot demand a physician's assistance and I was demonstrating how they can be demanded to perform their services. We can't turn people away who show up in Emergency Rooms regardless of their ability to pay I'd say that qualifies enough as binding enough to fall under that "Do No Harm" part. Of course that's my own interpretation of 1986's Emergency Medical and Treatment Labor Act

[omeomorfismo]

No, they're not. You're not entitled to any of those things. You have to pay for them.

where you arent entitled to have water? at least in the 1° world.

[Mistame]

where you arent entitled to have water? at least in the 1° world.

Not sure where you're from, but here, you have to pay for your water. If you don't pay your bill, you get no water.

[Hooked]

Rights are something you can fight for, you cant fight for a doctor to heal you.

[namecraft]

drinking is a privilage, it should cost thousands of dollars so at least someone will make money, which is very important.

[Deleted]

I think a lot of people over in Detroit would have something to say to that ^_^

In regards to health care it is neither a right or a privilege. It is a duty of society as a whole. Before health care evolved millions world wide died from completely preventable shit. Medical intervention, such that it was, was only available to the wealthy and powerful among us. Private health care places a bar on those who cannot afford it. Just look at America! Hard working families having no option but to set up a crowd funding begging page because they cant afford to pay for their kids cancer treatment! When the cost of medical intervention starts to equal 10's of thousands any costly medical condition becomes a death sentence once again unless the kindness of strangers steps in.

[omeomorfismo]

Not sure where you're from, but here, you have to pay for your water. If you don't pay your bill, you get no water.

italy, where legally you can go in a cafe and ask for a glass of water freely.
and there are still fountains

[Deleted]

There was nothing about it being legally binding ever mentioned by me.

If it's not legally binding it cannot, by definition, be a right.

We can't turn people away who show up in Emergency Rooms regardless of their ability to pay I'd say that qualifies enough as binding enough to fall under that "Do No Harm" part. Of course that's my own interpretation of 1986's Emergency Medical and Treatment Labor Act

That's the emergency rooms not the doctors.

[Deleted]

Those that believe that healthcare is a privilege only thinks that until they are themselves in a situation where insurance can't pay their healthcare. I am thankful for living in europe, where I know that anywhere I go within the borders of the EU, I will get healthcare and flown back to my home country no matter the cost and I will have to pay very little for it.
The people of the USA, not all, but as I understand it, alot, are starting to see this as a viable system. Problem is the people in charge don't want to lose all that sweet money they are making.

[Feahnor]

No one has any excuses. It's great that you can study to be a doctor for less than 7,000 Euros. Trust me, we would be beyond ecstatic if we could do that here. Do you really think ANY human being in our education system wants to come out with half a million of debt?

You also misunderstood my 500K comment. That's the cost of treatment. Harvoni is like 30K a bottle. For many complex cases, you'll need to spend 500K+ to make someone "healthy" or "productive". I suggested that it wasn't worth the trade off if they can't provide at least that much benefit to society.

Also, just because you paid 6 euros doesn't mean it didn't cost the hospital more than 6 euros to do the treatment, house you and your baby, capital expenses of the equipment, administrative salaries of the people entering you into the system, and the cost of services of the doctors taking care of your child, let alone the cost of the drugs etc.

Additionally in the US, you have legal issues with physicians needing to cover themselves, and that's a lot of additional cost.

I really think you don't know what you're asking when you say "fix your shit".

Yes, I DO know. Just stop allowing healthcare being a "for profit" business. Problem fixed, not easily, but fixed.

[Deleted]

Yes, I DO know. Just stop allowing healthcare being a "for profit" business. Problem fixed, not easily, but fixed.

Not for profit hospitals in the US are some of the worst run hospitals in the western world.
problem not fixed.

[Feahnor]

Not for profit hospitals in the US are some of the worst run hospitals in the western world.
problem not fixed.

Just because healthcare in the USA is a fucking nightmare that nobody in developed countries can understand. Most countries can do universal healthcare just fine. Why can't the usa do it? There's no reason to keep this situation like it is now.

[Deleted]

Just because healthcare in the USA is a fucking nightmare that nobody in developed countries can understand. Most countries can do universal healthcare just fine. Why can't the usa do it? There's no reason to keep this situation like it is now.

oh yes, the US system is complete garbage.
The problem is just not solely about 'profit' though.
One central problem is that there is no actor that strives to reduce costs, because the 'customer' doesn't pay directly, the insurer bills the employing company, and their insurance expenses are tax deductible.
If you want to fix healthcare in the US, ban employers paying for their employees health insurance.

[Ivanstone]

Not for profit hospitals in the US are some of the worst run hospitals in the western world.
problem not fixed.

For profit hospitals in the US are some of the worst run hospitals in the western world.

Hey look I can be hyperbolic without citation too.

At least non-profits aren't as likely to commit fraud.

[Phlegethon]

Personally I think Healthcare is a privilege and not a right.

If you misuse your body you should have to deal with the consequences unless you have purchased protection in the form of insurance.

Also, in ANY civilized country, no hospital is going to turn you away if you have something life threatening that HAS to be taken care of even if you don't have insurance.

Forcing doctors to see patients under universal health care greatly diminishes a doctors will to continue practicing. It also reduces the will of any people who would be willing to undergo 10+ years of education to become a doctor because the limited ability to make good money in the profession.

- That makes you a selfish idiot
- It has nothing to do with misuse, people rarely get cancer because of abuse, babies being born with defects, genetic mutations, babies suffering from defects because of things their parents did, companies destroing your environment and making you sick... Your views are narrowminded and well... retarded (also a pre existing condition)
- that is true, but that just shows you the US of A is not a civilized country, because they don't
- that is just retarded (again, djeez) Doctors have an oath (they really do yes) in wich they swear to serve and heal people

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:...
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can but I will always look for a path to a cure for all diseases.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Docters who I want to help me are those that uphold this oath and truly believe in their profession as healers.

- - - Updated - - -

Not for profit hospitals in the US are some of the worst run hospitals in the western world.
problem not fixed.

Your health is not something anyone should profit from. You should be helped. It's not a hard concept to grasp.