The Horde didn't abandon you!

[Kalcheus]

Never give up the flank.

***

That said, Genn and Sylvanas are both idiots in Stormheim questing, and I really loathe the actions of the players at Skold-Ashil.

[SirCowdog]

Play the rogue campaign. The rogue story is actually one of the better ones in the expansion. The broken shore was a setup.

If rogues actually had a tank spec, I'd be all over that. Or...anything, really, other than just "LOLDEEPS!"

[Heladys]

As said above, the "Victory or Death" saying is an Orcish term, and it refers to wars, not battles.

Given how many wars they lost, none of them should've remained alive to spread the saying around.

[KyrtF]

I'm Horde but even I think the Horde was wrong to abandon the assault.

It was an all or nothing attack and the Horde should have stayed and fought and died. The odds of getting a better chance against the Legion were low and give the options worth the loss of tne entire Horde force.

Now...we know this was due to story. But the problem here isn't the defeat...but the way the Horde was portrayed. The Horde broke and ran leaving the "noble" and "heroic" Alliance no choice but to withdraw. Surely the Horde could have been portrayed in a better light? Maybe even show the Orcs still retained some link to the Legion that forced a retreat amd a storyline whereby they purged themselves of that weakness.

But no....the Horde simply broke and ran, sacrificing a major opportunity to hand the Legion yet another defeat.

Not our finest moment and more than slightly out of character

[Lady Dragonheart]

According to the Alliance player's point of view, they did, very much so. The issue that you're concerned with is the metagame concept, the Horde was overrun by the Legion and bailed out on the Alliance, but the Alliance didn't see the Fel forces attacking the Horde. Boil it down: If you're Alliance, you were betrayed. If you're Horde, you escaped with your lives and gave the Alliance all the time you could spare.

[Leyre]

I'm Horde but even I think the Horde was wrong to abandon the assault.

It was an all or nothing attack and the Horde should have stayed and fought and died. The odds of getting a better chance against the Legion were low and give the options worth the loss of tne entire Horde force.

Now...we know this was due to story. But the problem here isn't the defeat...but the way the Horde was portrayed. The Horde broke and ran leaving the "noble" and "heroic" Alliance no choice but to withdraw. Surely the Horde could have been portrayed in a better light? Maybe even show the Orcs still retained some link to the Legion that forced a retreat amd a storyline whereby they purged themselves of that weakness.

But no....the Horde simply broke and ran, sacrificing a major opportunity to hand the Legion yet another defeat.

Not our finest moment and more than slightly out of character

Did you completely missed the fact that it wasnt gonna end in a win for either side? the portal cant be closed without the pillars of creations, had the horde remained there, they would have been all killed, the alliance would have pushed and would also been wiped because their plan was doomed to fail, and, as we saw, Gul'dan had Fel Reavers ready to deploy at any time

[dope_danny]

Its kind of odd to see the struggles of the horde player that wants to be the heroes still. Since theramore onwards Blizzards only way to keep the faction conflict going is to make the horde the bad guys again wether you want to be or not as the player.

I can't imagine what its like for a new player to pick horde and go through the forsaken stuff in particular. You start being raised from the dead rather than being afflicted by a plague by chance, your capital is a city where they mindrape living humans for fun, alchemical experimentation and slave labour and then through silverpine you join sylvanas in wiping out refugees from a city you attacked unprovoked to bring them back instantly as mindslaved forsaken and you get told she is now the hordes leader?

I know plenty of folks who were die hard horde players back in the day for the image of the 'noble savage' stereotype of druids and shaman living a simple life as the underdogs rising to the occasion as heroes. Now they are a militaristic machine built on slaves, mindbroken refugees and from the alliances perspective selfish cowards.
Since mid pandaria most made the jump to Alliance and didn't look back. Its a weird thing to see but i guess you put enough years into a faction as a diehard you take these shifts real personally.

[Restors]

Im a huge Horde fanboy!! I love orcs and forsaken, no matter good or truelly evil. Varok Saurfang or Putress.

But yeah, the Horde did abandon the alliance. The slogan Loktar ogar, Victory or Death means nothing to me now. None of the Horde, no matter which leader were dying, should've lefted. Either we came out of that victorious, or we all died right there.

The Horde escaped Putress at the wrath gate, they did it again now at Broken shore. I reaaaaally dont wanna say but... We are a bunch of cowardice.
If we ment business, we would've cleaved thoose damn demons like Chuck Norris would with his wooden spoon.


Or at least give me the option to join Gul'dan!!!!!!!!!!!!

[whynotchris]

I'm Horde but even I think the Horde was wrong to abandon the assault.

It was an all or nothing attack and the Horde should have stayed and fought and died. The odds of getting a better chance against the Legion were low and give the options worth the loss of tne entire Horde force.

Now...we know this was due to story. But the problem here isn't the defeat...but the way the Horde was portrayed. The Horde broke and ran leaving the "noble" and "heroic" Alliance no choice but to withdraw. Surely the Horde could have been portrayed in a better light? Maybe even show the Orcs still retained some link to the Legion that forced a retreat amd a storyline whereby they purged themselves of that weakness.

But no....the Horde simply broke and ran, sacrificing a major opportunity to hand the Legion yet another defeat.

Not our finest moment and more than slightly out of character

A tactical retreat isn't the same thing as abandonment. Varian was supposed to be rather good at battle strat, yes? And Genn? Valen is 10,000 years old, I'm sure he knows when the back off. They should've been calling a retreat at the same time as Sylvanas. Granted, Sylvanas was a military genius even before Undeath but a lot of the Ally leaders are easily in the same league as her if not better.

And for what it's worth, The Horde didn't really retreat...some Val'kyr showed up and carried their butts out of there on Syl's orders. I'm sure there were soldiers still ripping demons apart when those Undead angels came down and tore them from the battlefield.

[Darkeon]

Im a huge Horde fanboy!! I love orcs and forsaken, no matter good or truelly evil. Varok Saurfang or Putress.

But yeah, the Horde did abandon the alliance. The slogan Loktar ogar, Victory or Death means nothing to me now. None of the Horde, no matter which leader were dying, should've lefted. Either we came out of that victorious, or we all died right there.

The Horde escaped Putress at the wrath gate, they did it again now at Broken shore. I reaaaaally dont wanna say but... We are a bunch of cowardice.
If we ment business, we would've cleaved thoose damn demons like Chuck Norris would with his wooden spoon.


Or at least give me the option to join Gul'dan!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the expansion would have ended and Horde&Alliance bffs!! Woo!!!!!

Now you see why that didn't work out that way?

[Sigxy]

If only Anduin had a good friend at the Horde side who could explain exactly what happened... maybe a trustworthy tauren...

...Wait, hang on!

[KrazyK923]

We share a floating city with the other faction... There is no way that they wouldn't find out the whole story.

What makes it worse is both factions are undertaking the same missions, but without colluding with the other faction.

The only place that should have any tension is Stormheim, but that's because Genn is on his own personal crusade, Nathanos is on his own little crusade against Genn, Sylvannas is off pissing the God's off because why not, and both factions are trying to get the Aegis, while neither helps each other.

Or he's ignoring the petty faction squabble because he has ten thousand other things to do at the same time?

I don't pretend there are good reasons, but there are loopholes.

- - - Updated - - -

If only Anduin had a good friend at the Horde side who could explain exactly what happened... maybe a trustworthy tauren...

...Wait, hang on!

That's what I would like to see. Maybe a quest chain on the Horde side where Baine travels to Stormwind to talk to Anduin face-to-face.

[Irian]

Given how many wars they lost, none of them should've remained alive to spread the saying around.

Outland. The Lich King. Deathwing and the Twilight's Hammer. Draenor.

These were wars, they simply weren't wars against the Alliance. Each one of them was an all-out battle against an enemy's forces and yes they won every single one of them. Canonically regardless of who landed the final blow they still participated and were victorious by, you know, not being defeated.

[KrazyK923]

These were wars, they simply weren't wars against the Alliance. Each one of them was an all-out battle against an enemy's forces and yes they won every single one of them.

The fight against Illidan was won by the Sha'tar, Aldor, Scryer and Maiev Shadowsong.

The fight against the Lich King was won by the Ashen Verdict, Tirion, and Mograine.

The fight against Deathwing was won by the Dragon Aspects and Thrall.

The fight against Archimonde and Kil'jaeden was won by Khadgar, Yrel, Durotan, Grom, and the AU Draenor Orcs and Draenei.

You're stretching it insanely far to give the credit of any of those to either the Horde or Alliance. They were doing things during all those expansions, but in a lot of them (Wrath, Cataclysm especially, WoD) they were only fighting each other and trying not to be overwhelmed on their own lands.

[SirCowdog]

but the Alliance didn't see the Fel forces attacking the Horde.

But they had an damn airship on point, ready to evac everyone. Nobody on that thing saw what was going on over by the horde side? Riiiiiiight. "There was too much 'Fel Smoke', sir! We couldn't see!!!"

/facepalm

[PunisherV20]

Im a huge Horde fanboy!! I love orcs and forsaken, no matter good or truelly evil. Varok Saurfang or Putress.

But yeah, the Horde did abandon the alliance. The slogan Loktar ogar, Victory or Death means nothing to me now. None of the Horde, no matter which leader were dying, should've lefted. Either we came out of that victorious, or we all died right there.

The Horde escaped Putress at the wrath gate, they did it again now at Broken shore. I reaaaaally dont wanna say but... We are a bunch of cowardice.
If we ment business, we would've cleaved thoose damn demons like Chuck Norris would with his wooden spoon.


Or at least give me the option to join Gul'dan!!!!!!!!!!!!

A huge Horde fanboi huh? What kind of "huge Horde fanboi" doesn't know that Loktar Ogar is an Orc battle cry? Do you really think victory or death applies to the Blood Elves, Tauren, Trolls, Undead and lastly the Goblins? I bet you they see things very differently when it comes to battle/war.

Why wasn't the gunship Genn and them escaped on providing air support, or at least watching both sides of the fight? They could have alerted their boys on the ground that the Horde was about to be overrun and it's time to GTFO. Also, wasn't Jaina there as well? How come she couldn't port them all to Dalaran?

Stop blaming the Horde for the Alliances mistakes on the Broken shore.

[SirCowdog]

The fight against Illidan was won by the Sha'tar, Aldor, Scryer and Maiev Shadowsong.

IIRC, in the Illidan novel, it was a strike team made up of both horde and alliance heroes that engaged Illidan long enough to give Maiev and Akama a shot.

The fight against the Lich King was won by the Ashen Verdict, Tirion, and Mograine.

The Lich King set up the champions of the horde and alliance to become "The Greatest Fighting Force Azeroth has ever seen" in order to raise them under his control. Which implies that the Alliance and Horde heroes involved were kicking ass all over the Scourge throughout the time frame of WotLK. Granted it was Tirion who struck the telling blow with Ashbringer, but it was the raid group that brought it about.

The Horde and Alliance were also working together quite well up until the events of the Wrathgate.

The fight against Deathwing was won by the Dragon Aspects and Thrall.

And I suppose that Alliance airship that harried Deathwing long enough to give Thrall his shot with the Dragonsoul had nothing to do with it?

The fight against Archimonde and Kil'jaeden was won by Khadgar, Yrel, Durotan, Grom, and the AU Draenor Orcs and Draenei.

I got nuthin for this. WoD was ass.

[Nero Stormchester]

Seriously, would it have been that hard to shout a "Oi Wrynn! Vol'jin's down, PULL BACK!" instead of just walking away?

That's exactly what we did with the horn. Battle sights are noisy af, no one is going to hear ordinary shouting. And Alliance knows the Horde signals.

[Deleted]

Hordes are smelly and eat their own babies.

[KrazyK923]

IIRC, in the Illidan novel, it was a strike team made up of both horde and alliance heroes that engaged Illidan long enough to give Maiev and Akama a shot.

The entire thing was spearheaded by the Naaru, which they also bring up in the book. Illidan only laughs at the Horde and Alliance because of the bullshit about him being right all along and him trying to save where they were from. The Scryers and Aldor are there along with the Sha'tar. I mean in terms of a list of who is responsible for Illidan's downfall:

a.) Sha'tar
b.) Maiev and Akama
c.) Aldor and Scryer
d.) Player character
e.) Alliance and Horde.

Which is generally what is true of all the rest of these conflicts. The Alliance and Horde are the smallest parts of the force, to the point that some of these battles (Like against the Lich King and Deathwing) the only part of either faction there is the player character.

The Lich King set up the champions of the horde and alliance to become "The Greatest Fighting Force Azeroth has ever seen" in order to raise them under his control. Which implies that the Alliance and Horde heroes involved were kicking ass all over the Scourge throughout the time frame of WotLK. Granted it was Tirion who struck the telling blow with Ashbringer, but it was the raid group that brought it about.

The Horde and Alliance were also working together quite well up until the events of the Wrathgate.

The champions were agents of the Ashen Verdict. Which was the entire point of the Argent Tournament broseph. The force that infiltrated ICC and the force that ultimately kills the Lich King are the Ashen Verdict. The Horde and Alliance both enter ICC and fight the second their two airships meet one another. And then give up after the Deathbringer Saurfang fight for their own reasons, letting the Ashen Verdict push (Which is why you see that the faction in the 2nd-tier pushing toward Sister Svalna) forward.

And I suppose that Alliance airship that harried Deathwing long enough to give Thrall his shot with the Dragonsoul had nothing to do with it?

Not really, no. It's just an airship. It's cool that its an Alliance airship, but its just an airship.

Once again this is a gigantic stretch to try and credit either faction as even a significant part of the fight, let alone the reason they were won. Crediting either faction just because player characters were there are they HAVE to be part of either faction is incredibly silly.