i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[Sooba]

/SNIP.

You're still discussing (relatively) trivial content for which you didn't have to do any kicking. Something challenging where a truly competent tank and healer are required, you would attempt very little instruction before kicking and telling them to practice and improve on their own time. A DPS? Can't even give a reason for removal if it's terrible dps, because that's "toxicity". Double standard. Hell, even giving them pointers to improve dps might run into trouble because it indicates that you've been seeing some numbers...

[Kyriani]

Every single role is critical whether it's tanking, healing or DPS'ing. So once more, try again.

I don't agree. Every role needs to perform their job but every role is not critical in every situation. In dungeons, tanks and healers can make up for low dps. I do it all the time as a white mage. My holy spam/assize has made up for quite a bit of sub par dps :P

Is dps as a whole vital to beating enrage timers on savage fights? Absolutely. I am not arguing that. But not all the dps have to be uber. Just good enough that AS A WHOLE, you can beat the encounter. It's about cooperation. And while parsers CAN be used as wonderful tools for personal betterment, they more often than not, become weapons for self-esteem boosting at the expense of others. What was once a cooperative situation becomes a competitive one.

[Bullettime]

In my experience the lack of meters does absolutely nothing to prevent the toxicity you're talking about. It just allows more people to be toxic due to no one actually knowing how well / poorly they're playing.

I remember playing swtor back before people started using the 3rd party programs to get in game meters and people acting like they were gods gift to the game and all the same toxicity only for the meters to tell a very different story once people got around to using them.

Pretty much. You still see people flaming or being toxic towards people who are obviously underperforming. It's pretty easy to spot tbh, even without logs. You can see that the Dragoon isn't keeping up Heavy Thrust, the Ninja is rabbitting nonstop or forgot their poisons, the healer isn't using anything but their base Cure clone, etc.

People will be toxic about shit regardless. Saying no to parsing because of toxicity is no different than when Riot claimed for years "we can't do sandbox mode because then players will be more toxic to others who make mistakes!" And that argument was bullshit. Hell, Japanese servers even already use out of client stuff to blacklist terrible players, both for attitude and gameplay. They don't need a parser to do that.

There absolutely needs to be a way to push people to improve in this game due to how its designed. Whether it be a parser, a score system, whatever. There's no fucking excuse for you to hit 60 on a Summoner and still just spamming Ruin. But under the current system, we can't tell them they need to improve, we can't prove to them they're underperforming, the game tells them nothing about their performance other than a binary pass-fail where they get their deadweight corpses drug across the finish line, and we're not even allowed to vote kick for awful performance.

[Ravex]

I've always been the type to min/max myself for top performance because I want to see how much I can push for.

I don't support group meters because it takes something I choose to do and pushes it more towards what I have to do.

I could give a shit what others are doing as long as the dragon falls down. For me at least an mmo is not the type of game to strive for perfection and speed.

[Katchii]

You're still discussing (relatively) trivial content for which you didn't have to do any kicking. Something challenging where a truly competent tank and healer are required, you would attempt very little instruction before kicking and telling them to practice and improve on their own time. A DPS? Can't even give a reason for removal if it's terrible dps, because that's "toxicity". Double standard. Hell, even giving them pointers to improve dps might run into trouble because it indicates that you've been seeing some numbers...

FFXIV discourages people from kicking others simply for bad performance. The only 4 legitimate reason for kicking are: Offline, AFK, Harassment and Cheating with a message that says unjustified usage of the vote dismiss feature is a punishable offense.

That said, if a tank healer OR DPS refuse to acknowledge constructive criticism and instead perform terribly while being an asshat about it, I'd vote dismiss any of them for harassment. There's no double standard, you just can't explicitly use the parser as the reason for the kick.

[Dwill]

Since parsers are not necessary to complete content, yes, I would deny an official in game parser if it means potentially reducing the amount of bad behavior.

Come on, at least quote the whole thing:

FFXIV-APP was a thing before ATC and was freely available before the T5 world first. So no, statics weren't clearing things well before them. Try again.

Wanna comment on that ?

I don't agree. Every role needs to perform their job but every role is not critical in every situation. In dungeons, tanks and healers can make up for low dps. I do it all the time as a white mage. My holy spam/assize has made up for quite a bit of sub par dps :P

You can do expert with Selene and Clemency being the only source of healing with enough gear. That's really a fair assessment.

Is dps as a whole vital to beating enrage timers on savage fights? Absolutely. I am not arguing that. But not all the dps have to be uber. Just good enough that AS A WHOLE, you can beat the encounter. It's about cooperation. And while parsers CAN be used as wonderful tools for personal betterment, they more often than not, become weapons for self-esteem boosting at the expense of others. What was once a cooperative situation becomes a competitive one.

Alexander: Midas says what ?

That said, if a tank healer OR DPS refuse to acknowledge constructive criticism and instead perform terribly while being an asshat about it, I'd vote dismiss any of them for harassment. There's no double standard, you just can't explicitly use the parser as the reason for the kick.

Nor can you use the parser to let the person know they are under performing and try to help them out, which is just ridiculous.

[Bullettime]

FFXIV discourages people from kicking others simply for bad performance. The only 4 legitimate reason for kicking are: Offline, AFK, Harassment and Cheating with a message that says unjustified usage of the vote dismiss feature is a punishable offense.

That said, if a tank healer OR DPS refuse to acknowledge constructive criticism and instead perform terribly while being an asshat about it, I'd vote dismiss any of them for harassment. There's no double standard, you just can't explicitly use the parser as the reason for the kick.

Hell, I got a 3 day ban once for kicking someone outright playing like shit for "incorrect usage of the vote removal function" or something along those lines. Dragoon was standing in the corner of the room on the first boss of Gubal HM only using Piercing Talon. I vote kicked them, they opened a ticket, were on my server and messaged me that they were opening a ticket on me, then 4 hours later I got an email that my account would be suspended with the vote kick cited for why.

[Kyriani]

You're still discussing (relatively) trivial content for which you didn't have to do any kicking. Something challenging where a truly competent tank and healer are required, you would attempt very little instruction before kicking and telling them to practice and improve on their own time. A DPS? Can't even give a reason for removal if it's terrible dps, because that's "toxicity". Double standard. Hell, even giving them pointers to improve dps might run into trouble because it indicates that you've been seeing some numbers...

Relatively trivial content is where toxicity tends to show up. In savage raiding, it is not unreasonable to expect a certain level of performance. Expecting savage raiding level performance in trivial content is, however, unreasonable to say the least.

[Dwill]

ITT: people think a boss living 30 seconds longer means do isn't doing their job and deserve to be kicked. All these comparisons to tanks/healers leave a bit to be desired to say the least.

Do explain more, I'd love to hear your reasoning on this.

Relatively trivial content is where toxicity tends to show up. In savage raiding, it is not unreasonable to expect a certain level of performance. Expecting savage raiding level performance in trivial content is, however, unreasonable to say the least.

People don't expect savage level of performance, people expect others to carry their own weight a.k.a doing something more than ARR level of damage.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I dunno how much WoW experience you have, but this really doesn't happen anywhere near to the extent you seem to think it is. It's months inbetween I see anyone randomly posting dps lists in chat. And if someone does post it, 9/10 times it's to say "look how good I am" instead of "look how bad player x is". And again, 9/10 times the group is gonna completely ignore what was posted.

I've never had to post a meter to kick a terrible dps, I look at the meter then initiate the kick based on what I see. The vote would pass far more often than not, because it was apparent to anyone who had a dps meter and was competent that the individual I initiated the vote kick on was playing extremely poorly (I do mean extremely poorly, as in doing less than half of their potential dps for their gear and spec).

Edit(clarification): I am speaking specifically with regards to kicking people in WoW.

[Bullettime]

ITT: people think a boss living 30 seconds longer means dps isn't doing their job and deserve to be kicked. All these comparisons to tanks/healers leave a bit to be desired to say the least.

Living 30 seconds longer isn't the issue. It's more that there are people at 60 who will do 400 DPS and it's against all rules to remove them for that, can't prove to them they're doing that, and the game doesn't tell them they're playing like ass either.

[Bullettime]

I've never had to post a meter to kick a terrible dps, I look at the meter then initiate the kick based on what I see. The vote would pass far more often than not, because it was apparent to anyone who had a dps meter and was competent that the individual I initiated the vote kick on was playing extremely poorly (I do mean extremely poorly, as in doing less than half of their potential dps for their gear and spec).

Problem is you're kind of at that the mercy of the kicked person. If they open a ticket and claim they were vote kicked for playing bad, you can and will be banned. Been on the the receiving end of that.

[Cattleya]

Every single role is critical whether it's tanking, healing or DPS'ing. So once more, try again.



2 DPS failing (seeing as how you've got 2 healers and 2 DPS in a group) to DPS properly will usually result in a wipe due to straining resources from the healers, failing to meet DPS checks due to the slack who might be too much to pick up.

It's not ok for tanks and healers to be called out but for DPS to get a free pass due to "maybes" and "ifs".

If the lack of DPS is consistently resulting in a wipe, by all means, replace them. If you don't wipe, I see no reason for a kick, even if one of the DPS is doing a low amount of damage.

[Resiak]

Phrased differently, why do tanks and healers have to deal with getting kicked for not doing their role, if dps don't?

You know. I'm sitting here trying to think of people getting kicked and why, and I can't. In all my time playing ff 14, off and on since ARR released, all of the countless trials, dungeons, and raid i've run, i can not think of a single case of someone getting vote kicked outside of a dc. I've seen countless people leave. I've seen vote abandons when its become apparent that the group wasn't capable of completing the content, but never seen anyone directly vote kicked. I did see it often in wow, and typically dps. And from my experience in wow, and the stories i've heard of people getting kicked in ff, it's almost always dps. Most people arn't going to cut into their run by kicking a tank or healer, unless their so terrible, your not going to be able to finish.

As for the topic of the parsers and meters, no than you. MMO's where meant to be an extension of table top rpgs. Their supposed to be games where we embrace a fantasy character, and lose ourselves in these worlds, their supposed to be adventures, and experiences. Once you start bringing in tools to view analytics, it tears these walls down. Nothing breaks your immersion more then having some try hard start going off on you because your not living up to their expectations of what you should be doing in dps.

If a dps is doing so bad that their worthy of getting kicked, you can tell without a meter. Their tp doesnt budge. They take a ton of unnecessary damage. Buffs you know should be popping up arn't. The rate the boss is dying doesnt change when they run out from a mechanic. You know when someone is being carried. I dont do savage raiding, so I have never once felt at any moment I needed a meter to tell me how I'm doing. And I raided for years in wow, and used to obsess over my logs. I just don't care in FF, and like it that way.

[grexly75]

All parsing is, is the embodiment of stroking ones epeen.. And WoW unfortunately is rife with it don't do a certain level of dps out you go.. It is good to see a community so against it as in the end all it will do is breed a bunch of toxic douches..

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Problem is you're kind of at that the mercy of the kicked person. If they open a ticket and claim they were vote kicked for playing bad, you can and will be banned. Been on the the receiving end of that.

Sorry, I should've specified I was referring to it in WoW. I've only played a trial month of FFXIV, so I'm not really familiar with max-level content or the ToU of it.

[Kyriani]

Wanna comment on that ?

Sure. I'll comment. I honestly didn't know that existed before ACT. So I admit I was mistaken. Happy?

You can do expert with Selene and Clemency being the only source of healing with enough gear. That's really a fair assessment.

yep a sch fairy when properly managed, can solo heal most dungeons even without any Clemency help leaving the SCH to pew pew and make up for low dps even more. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Alexander: Midas says what ?

DPS as whole has to be at a certain level to beat the boss. But that doesn't necessarily mean everyone's dps has to be or is going to be the same. Some people are just better than others, whether due to better physical dexterity or mental acumen. Now if the content is not able to be cleared, and you're looking for reasons why, sure parsers can help. This use of parsers most folk don't have a problem with. Its when they are used to metermaid everyone even in trivial content where things start going south.

[Queen of Hamsters]

See, this I don't get. I'd been in pugs across 7 characters geared from Mythic down to blues for ~9 years before I eventually left due to moving on. I'd been subjected to DPS shaming precisely 0 times. I'd witnessed it in a pernicious form less than 1% of the runs I've ever been on. About 30% of the runs had some level of commentary on DPS, most of which were remarkably straightforwardly respectful. ("Please meet relatively low x value or we'll have to kick in order to be able to down the boss") All of those runs were inevitably challenging content that required such restrictions. Standard mythic dungeons? pfft.

Most flaming I've ever witnessed has almost always come in the form of folks getting upset at people failing mechanics that ultimately screwed the group. Most often it's when said mechanics don't have the operant conditioning of insta-gibbing the offender, because then they don't learn.

Just a few hours ago when I was tanking a normal, the healer felt the need to shame one of the DPS for no other reason than him/her not doing high dps. The boss went smooth as silk.

I've seen it spiral into real shitshows when people question DPS for their numbers when the run is going well. People don't like being called out on shit like that.

- - - Updated - - -

OP just reading some of your posts make you sound like you're what Yoshi-P doesn't want to happen in game, I was at the Frankfurt fanfest back in Feb and when he was asked about Parser's the attitude you have shown in this thread sum up why he does not want Parser's in FFXIV.

It's not that parsers themselves cause toxicity among the playerbase but the attitudes some players like yourself seem to form about everyone else being trash where as you're l33t.

Exactly this. The people hankering for parses are often part of why the devs don't want this system in this game...:P

[Dwill]

A proper comparison would be a tank being really slow to pick up adds, or maybe losing aggro on a mob when are tanking and being slow to retaunt it. For a healer I imagine it would be something like you are constantly low health or do not get dispelled, but nothing wipe-worthy.

The tank/healer comparisons I am reading would have to have the dps to just be afk, which I assume is NOT what we are discussing here. Slow dps != no dps.

Slow DPS might as well be no DPS if it isn't good enough

yep a sch fairy when properly managed, can solo heal most dungeons even without any Clemency help leaving the SCH to pew pew and make up for low dps even more. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

That healers in trivial content aren't as critical as you make them to be.

DPS as whole has to be at a certain level to beat the boss. But that doesn't necessarily mean everyone's dps has to be or is going to be the same. Some people are just better than others, whether due to better physical dexterity or mental acumen. Now if the content is not able to be cleared, and you're looking for reasons why, sure parsers can help. This use of parsers most folk don't have a problem with. Its when they are used to metermaid everyone even in trivial content where things start going south.

I think you're over exaggerating how much people would use this in trivial content. WoW has much more players than FFXIV and the occasion where I see DPS brought up are few and far between (and I use to PUG a lot in WoW).

Just a few hours ago when I was tanking a normal, the healer felt the need to shame one of the DPS for no other reason than him/her not doing high dps. The boss went smooth as silk.

And I've never seen it happen in chat once and I've got in the thousands of duty done. There's a reason why people don't put too much faith into anecdotal evidence. In the case of your healer just report for harassment then move on, don't advocate the ban of a tool which can be used for perfectly valid reasons because of a banal number of incidents.

[Bullettime]

Not even so much pro parse personally. I would just love a more elaborate training tool in game or even a personal performance grade that's already so popular and prevalent in Japanese games to try to whip people into shape.

We don't so much need a parser to call out people for being terrible as that's being a toxic douche. But players should be nudged in the right direction somehow to avoid shit like the 400 DPS Monk in 260 gear. A performance grade would accomplish that by subtly telling people "hey you need to clean up your play a bit" when they finish a boss with a D rank. League of Legends even uses this system.