i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[Katchii]

the problem is a lot of people play on console and can't use ACT.

Again, very true, and I'd also bet that there were plenty of groups that were entirely console players so wouldn't have the option to even have a PC player with ACT check their numbers for them. However, if they're playing the kind of content where a tool like ACT is incredibly value added without it then that really just illustrates how unnecessary it is. It would still be very useful, I'm not arguing against that, I'm just saying if people can do it without the tool then that's just another reason the Devs wouldn't want or feel the need to make it natively supported.

[Wrecktangle]

See you're issue is that you seem to play mostly with competent players which the average player isn't. I remember one specific example way back in Bastion of Twilight. It was a pug run for my alt hunter. We were on Cho'Gal and I was the only person in the group that could handle the puddle adds properly. I decided to change one talent so my traps would root the adds in place. Of course we proceeded to wipe because people were standing in puddles and transforming among other things. What happened was two of the people in the group saw me have that talent (instead of another talent that slightly increased my DPS) and proceeded to lose their shit and blame me for the wipe. I was the only one in the group doing mechanics properly and even though I was the only one killing adds (easy as fuck as a hunter) I was still highest on DPS by a huge margin.

Similar stuff to what I mentioned above is what I see happen all the time in groups. People pick on a person because they see them doing something that isn't the norm. That or they see them lower on the DPS meter and automatically assume (the average player doesn't know how to read meters and you'd be surprised how many use overall data) it's their fault without looking at the big picture. People praise a Fire Mage doing a crap ton of dps and mention how they're so amazing even though the fight lasted a minute so it's not a proper indication of anything.

So 6.5 years ago on Cho'Gal a raid leader gave you shit for using a bad talent. I'm assuming you defended yourself with evidence (i.e. add damage/damage taken, etc. and explained your choice to make these idiots look like fools right? This is actually a prime example of something I said earlier where elitist players aren't the ones talking down harassing, it's almost always some wannabe.

If people draw bad conclusions from the data you have to call them out for it. Just like if someone is doing a downright horrible job, you have to call them out on it.

Competition breeds improvement need to look at it under different light, not just under the "toxic" spectrum.

100% factual. Here's the thing people always are assuming if the data was public that people would only bash people, but they fail to acknowledge the positives, that maybe a player might ask someone, yo, how'd you do so much damage our gear is the same, or yo how do you heal so well and DPS at the same time I can never do it, etc. Or wow you're a really good tank. How do you manage to hold threat while in DPS stance and not die?

Without the data, you'll never know these things, and if you're taking the time to watch and look, you're not contributing enough yourself.

Can't disagree with this, however the groups that really NEED to improve to complete the content they are attempting will use these tools specifically for improvement. Random groups that can and will complete the content without much effort don't need these tools and the "unwashed masses" that have access to these tools when in that kind of content don't really bring anything of value to the group.

Basically, the population that really needs a tool like this already has a tool available and is already using it (namely ACT) to do what they want and the Devs allow it. I'm not really seeing a gap here that needs to be filled.

You're again looking at this too binarily. Look at it from a laymans perspective. No DPS meter, goes about mashing whatever keys he thinks relevant. DPS meter, he sees another DRG do 2.7k dps. He sees himself do 900. They have identical gear. Sure some are going to hassle him over it (and they should), but maybe, just maybe he asks questions or decides you know what I must be missing something let me look online, etc. The point is this data could have just made one player more engaged in his performance, and that's a good thing.

Now I'm a firm believer that the game should do a good job telling you what to use how to use it and why you use it, but we're not there yet.

Again, very true, and I'd also bet that there were plenty of groups that were entirely console players so wouldn't have the option to even have a PC player with ACT check their numbers for them. However, if they're playing the kind of content where a tool like ACT is incredibly value added without it then that really just illustrates how unnecessary it is. It would still be very useful, I'm not arguing against that, I'm just saying if people can do it without the tool then that's just another reason the Devs wouldn't want or feel the need to make it natively supported.

Console players are one of the main reasons why SQEX needs to have it be an in house solution so that its fair for everyone.

[Katchii]

You're again looking at this too binarily. Look at it from a laymans perspective. No DPS meter, goes about mashing whatever keys he thinks relevant. DPS meter, he sees another DRG do 2.7k dps. He sees himself do 900. They have identical gear. Sure some are going to hassle him over it (and they should), but maybe, just maybe he asks questions or decides you know what I must be missing something let me look online, etc. The point is this data could have just made one player more engaged in his performance, and that's a good thing.

Now I'm a firm believer that the game should do a good job telling you what to use how to use it and why you use it, but we're not there yet.


Console players are one of the main reasons why SQEX needs to have it be an in house solution so that its fair for everyone.

Fair points. I know I sound like I don't want them, which isn't exactly true. I am just legitimately concerned with how the trolling, douchebaggy, asshole population will use it if literally EVERYONE has it.

If all you ever play with are high performing, serious/ focused, "professional" groups it's not going to be a problem because they'll use the tool appropriately or at least not in a completely condescending way. The problem always comes from the random groups in Duty Finder, 24 man content, etc....which is what a huge population uses so I see it being a pretty abused tool, used for the wrong reasons.

To reiterate, the groups/ people who really want to perform well, will use guides and other tools to increase their performance with or without this. The people that don't care or don't want to, won't likely change with the addition of this tool. There is that small (I'm assuming it is anyway) population of people that fall somewhere in the middle that would be driven to improve by simply seeing their performance.

I'd be 100% on board if it was a personal thing, that way trolls couldn't abuse it in random groups and the information was available to high performing groups who would willingly share it amongst themselves.

[Aruhen]

So 6.5 years ago on Cho'Gal a raid leader gave you shit for using a bad talent. I'm assuming you defended yourself with evidence (i.e. add damage/damage taken, etc. and explained your choice to make these idiots look like fools right? This is actually a prime example of something I said earlier where elitist players aren't the ones talking down harassing, it's almost always some wannabe.

If people draw bad conclusions from the data you have to call them out for it. Just like if someone is doing a downright horrible job, you have to call them out on it

I did call them out on it. The point is things like this happen because the average player base is, to be completely honest, stupid. When they have access to such easy to use tools and they don't know how to use it properly.... well.

I'm not completely opposed to a damage meter though. It would be awesome if people can have a tool to better themselves and while ACT exists it can't be used on consoles like you mentioned.

The real question is though should it show everyone's DPS or only your own? I'm on the side of that it should just show yours with no ability to share it. Of course the issue remains that how would they know that they're doing bad? One idea I had is maybe when an instance run is over it would ask you to upload the logs to the lodestone (there would be an option for automatic upload too) so you can go into detail about what you were doing. At the same time you can also see the performance of the rest of your party on the same lodestone page. Of course it would keep the logs of maybe the last 10 instance runs to have some comparisons.

Just food for thought.

[Swalload]

I fully support this decision as well. You only have to look to WOW to see what happens when "gearscore" and "dps" take over. The community becomes a cesspool. Specs that are 1% below others are considered "nonviable" and people are trolled for using them. Guilds start dictating what specs people play, what talents they pick. People only look at "dps" on damage meters (they don't consider things like total damage done, or if you're doing a nonstandard role like kiting something). People are screamed at and kicked if they are 5% below something else. Other people will do stupid stuff that's not part of doing the encounter correctly just to pad meters. Incredibly toxic behavior that doesn't have any place in this game. It ruined the WOW community. It doesn't need to ruin this one too.

You're one salty, wrong, biased, and ignorant person. None of what you described happens. It really is not that bad.

Sure there are some moments people are being bitched at, but not for 5%, more like they are doing less dmg than the tank or straight up half of what they are supposed to do considering their gear and their role.

Total dmg done is not even a thing anymore, nobody gives a shit about that number, the highest dps will always do more total dmg. Only very bad addons will stop your dps the moment you die (like recount or skada) while well made addons like "Details!" keep rolling yuor dps after you die so you end up with shit dps, because in FACT during this fight you did shit dps cuz you died, perfectly logical.

People need to know they suck ass, no one is supposed to just play like shit and get the same reward everybody else gets.

You hate ISIS cuz they do bad things? Why not hate sucky dps cuz they are also doing bad things?

[Kazgrel]

You're one salty, wrong, biased, and ignorant person. None of what you described happens. It really is not that bad.

Sure there are some moments people are being bitched at, but not for 5%, more like they are doing less dmg than the tank or straight up half of what they are supposed to do considering their gear and their role.

Total dmg done is not even a thing anymore, nobody gives a shit about that number, the highest dps will always do more total dmg. Only very bad addons will stop your dps the moment you die (like recount or skada) while well made addons like "Details!" keep rolling yuor dps after you die so you end up with shit dps, because in FACT during this fight you did shit dps cuz you died, perfectly logical.

People need to know they suck ass, no one is supposed to just play like shit and get the same reward everybody else gets.

You hate ISIS cuz they do bad things? Why not hate sucky dps cuz they are also doing bad things?

You're taking one silly post and responding in an even sillier manner (to put it nicely).

Better to have the guy that did 10 million total damage over the course of an entire fight, averaging 50k dps, over the guy who did 100k dps for 10 seconds before eating dirt due to an AoE/mechanic he ignored. See? Total damage is a valuable metric to have.

[Swalload]

You're taking one silly post and responding in an even sillier manner (to put it nicely).

Better to have the guy that did 10 million total damage over the course of an entire fight, averaging 50k dps, over the guy who did 100k dps for 10 seconds before eating dirt due to an AoE/mechanic he ignored. See? Total damage is a valuable metric to have.

As I stated, by using non shit addons, the dps the second guy did should be calculated over the entire fight, not only the moment he was alive, making his total dmg done AND dps pure shit. See? Reading comprehension helps a lot.

[Kazgrel]

As I stated, by using non shit addons, the dps the second guy did should be calculated over the entire fight, not only the moment he was alive, making his total dmg done AND dps pure shit. See? Reading comprehension helps a lot.

I used Recount for nearly 10 years in WoW and I had it set where I would see total damage, with the actual dps listed in parentheses along with it. So I was able to quickly point out scenarios where someone was doing "mad deeps" for as long as their cds were up, only to eat dirt/go afk/etc.

[Video Games]

this fucking boo boo ass bitch midget motherfucker

I just can't anymore

[Gandrake]

you know what i love about ffxiv

its okay to be openly racist towards lalafells even though the game is about friendship and doing the right thing

You only have to look to WOW to see what happens when "gearscore" and "dps" take over.

i hate to tell you this since you seem to be oblivious but you're about an entire expansion and a half a year of content late on that one

[toomes211]

The problem with no DPS parsing, for me personally is actually really basic. Tanks and healers have a fairly direct metric that's observable for them to determine their own performance. Tanks hold, threat, healers keep people from dying. It goes deeper than that of course, having to consider what the DPS is doing, are people doing mechanics properly, etc.

If you run a dungeon as a tank, and hold threat the entire time, you did most of your job. If you also helped your healer by doing mechanics and using CDs, you did even better. Most of the time these things have an immediate and noticable feedback when do you something poorly.

It's the same for healers, and to some extent, DPS. You have an immediate feedback as a DPS when you do a mechanic wrong. You might die, you might take a whole huge chunk of damage. You might get stunned or pacified or slowed. You might notice you were standing in the giant pool of fire. All of that is great, and good. You can see when you make mistakes.

There's not the same feedback for doing higher DPS. "Things just die faster" is the only thing you can say. However, even in a four man group you might not be able to narrow it down that much. There's another dps there. What kind of gear do they have? Are they a different class? Do you have more AOE than you? How would you even know, necessarily, if you don't play that class? How much DPS is the tank doing? The healer? It's too complicated to tell how much or little you're contributing easily. Even when you're doing half the damage of someone else in the group. Damage meters make everything crystal clear.

I am not an advocate of using this information in the interest of belittling or insulting someone. At the worst, it should be used to educate people. To help them understand how to improve. I'm not ignorant of the fact that people aren't always going to do this. I know there's always going to be jerks that just want to flex their e-peen and brag about their damage, or put down others for their 'bad' damage.

I just don't think it's fair to put so much blame on the tool. The tool, is a tool. It gives you information. What a person chooses to do with that information says way more about that person, than the tool itself.

[HAcoreRD]

you know what i love about ffxiv

its okay to be openly racist towards lalafells even though the game is about friendship and doing the right thing





i hate to tell you this since you seem to be oblivious but you're about an entire expansion and a half a year of content late on that one

Those drop mounts that are sought after.

[Gandrake]

And?

having an item level of 265 isn't going to fix the fact people in your group are too stupid to work with tank to swap tether or that one of the tanks keeps provoking the fang instead of the boss. not gona fix the fact people are too stupid to stack on nidhogg's ass right after fireballs.

people in ffxiv are just as stupid as the people in wow lol. maybe dumber sometimes.

- - - Updated - - -

i mean damn nigga what you learning at item level 260 in sephi? that you suck at this game? xD

[Dwill]

Because it leads to a toxic community. I'm happy with the FFXIV community not being toxic like WoW for example.

Again, WoW being so toxic stopped being true quite some time ago. FFXIV also has its amount of toxic player so that's not much of an argument.

Those drop mounts that are sought after.

So ?

[Nikkaszal]

Ehm, what? It's still super toxic, I had to give up playing mythic+ because of the constant abuse players were giving each other. What in your mind has changed the toxicity within the WoW community? I think it has gotten worse.

Your argument of Mythic+ is flawed in this instance. It's a timed run - having high DPS is paramount. A person doing sub-par performance causes the group to miss chests, or lose the keystone entirely.

[kamuimac]

the most common excuse is harassment but man i can tell you i really dont need a parser to tell that someone is doing really low damage and to be annoyed by it. i mean damn lol shouldn't we be telling Dragoons their AoE DPS is trash because they are spamming ring of thorns since they never noticed doom spike has a potency of 160? You'd kick a tank or healer without hesitation for not being able to fulfill the duty they queued as... why wouldn't you kick a DPS for the same thing?

is what it really boils down to that being a dps is a "safe zone" for poor performance in spite of taking up the most critical role in a group's success?

I mean... I can't help but laugh when there is a dps problem and I am doing 50% damage and the other bard passive aggressively asks me why I am using foes then motions a vote abandon when I tell him "because it's free damage". After dragging all 700 of his dps through sohm al this fucking boo boo ass bitch midget motherfucker is going to act like he was doing 1700 dps and I was doing 300? When he can't even read a tooltip?

and i'm not even allowed to tell him how bad his damage really was.

now in this scenario everyone has wasted their time because nobody had the balls to kick the McShitDPS Supreme. But if your healer or tank was doing that bad of a job they would have been kicked so much sooner.

its called caring about community and moderating toxic behaviour

something what other bigger mmo should learn from FF instead promoting toxicity

[Killadrix]

The problem with no DPS parsing, for me personally is actually really basic. Tanks and healers have a fairly direct metric that's observable for them to determine their own performance. Tanks hold, threat, healers keep people from dying. It goes deeper than that of course, having to consider what the DPS is doing, are people doing mechanics properly, etc.

If you run a dungeon as a tank, and hold threat the entire time, you did most of your job. If you also helped your healer by doing mechanics and using CDs, you did even better. Most of the time these things have an immediate and noticable feedback when do you something poorly.

It's the same for healers, and to some extent, DPS. You have an immediate feedback as a DPS when you do a mechanic wrong. You might die, you might take a whole huge chunk of damage. You might get stunned or pacified or slowed. You might notice you were standing in the giant pool of fire. All of that is great, and good. You can see when you make mistakes.

There's not the same feedback for doing higher DPS. "Things just die faster" is the only thing you can say. However, even in a four man group you might not be able to narrow it down that much. There's another dps there. What kind of gear do they have? Are they a different class? Do you have more AOE than you? How would you even know, necessarily, if you don't play that class? How much DPS is the tank doing? The healer? It's too complicated to tell how much or little you're contributing easily. Even when you're doing half the damage of someone else in the group. Damage meters make everything crystal clear.

I am not an advocate of using this information in the interest of belittling or insulting someone. At the worst, it should be used to educate people. To help them understand how to improve. I'm not ignorant of the fact that people aren't always going to do this. I know there's always going to be jerks that just want to flex their e-peen and brag about their damage, or put down others for their 'bad' damage.

I just don't think it's fair to put so much blame on the tool. The tool, is a tool. It gives you information. What a person chooses to do with that information says way more about that person, than the tool itself.

This guy gets it. Tanks and Healers are under 100% scrutiny, DPS get to do whatever they want and the second anyone says, "hey wait, maybe we should be looking at DPS?" the DPS are like "OHHH HELL NAW!!!"

[8bithamster]

Mostly because the parser fans can't accept people have something against it and have to lash out like this topic.

[Dwill]

Ehm, what? It's still super toxic, I had to give up playing mythic+ because of the constant abuse players were giving each other. What in your mind has changed the toxicity within the WoW community? I think it has gotten worse.

That's just confirmation bias. For all we know, people could just have told you that you weren't ready for Mythic + in a nice way and you could have considered it toxic. In my case, I've barely raided the last few expansions and I've pugged most of the content since WOD's without barely a toxic incident and no latter than two days ago in FFXIV, my wife got told to fuck off because she gave friendly advice to a new healer in leveling roullette and got told to "stfu" in the following Guildheists, which was the gigas one when she asked the tank to not face the artifacts.

[Usagi Senshi]

Ehm, what? It's still super toxic, I had to give up playing mythic+ because of the constant abuse players were giving each other. What in your mind has changed the toxicity within the WoW community? I think it has gotten worse.

I mostly do M+ 8-11 with a two friends and mostly randoms and maybe I've ran into 2-3 asshats (mostly a healer trying to rush the tank and a couple runs where a person just leaves randomly). The other group I associate with are only abusive to one another while they're in Discord when they are trying 15-20 M+ runs and make stupid mistakes.

I've found that people that throw around the "toxic" excuse are usually extremely sensitive and can't take criticism (usually being asses themselves).