Mob burns Venezuelan man alive over $5 as justice fails

[Glorious Leader]

As an economic system, socialism doesn't function as well as any economic system which includes a financial sector, because of things like price discovery and radical uncertainty.

Nothing about socialism precludes markets which is primarily where price discovery occurs.

Finance especially in the most advanced capitalist countries is essentially parsitical and actually harms economic activity.

[Surfd]

As an economic system, socialism doesn't function as well as any economic system which includes a financial sector, because of things like price discovery and radical uncertainty.

I may not be a Finance Major, but I don't really see how either of those things are incompatible with Socialism. It is entirely possible to have market based socialism, which would cover and account for what you are talking about. In fact, in Venezuela, they are pretty much a market based Socialist country, which went to hell because the people running it didn't properly understand the market. If they had had more competent financial advisors and not staked their entire countries well being on a single commodity, they would likely be doing just fine.

[NED funded]

It has features, but it's not. It's a national movement that has similar ideas of maintaining state. Many of them have even moved entirely away from those aspects.

Regardless, again, my point stands that a nation can't just 'go do that'.

I mean for larger nations that is true, but the Kibbutz effectively made the transition from Socialism/Anarchist-ish community to a capitalist one pretty easily. And once again I fail to see how the Kibbutz did not meet the criteria for socialism at the time?

[Nadiru]

Nothing about socialism precludes markets which is primarily where price discovery occurs.

Finance especially in the most advanced capitalist countries is essentially parsitical and actually harms economic activity.

"Finance as parasite" is a common trope, and one which ignores the contexts in which financial panics impede economic activity. Price discovery is primarily a financial phenomenon (albeit through financial markets,) a fact which becomes obvious once you realize that market prices must carry the financial baggage associated with the price. This will be true in any socialist economy with money just as it's true in any capitalist economy with money.

[Krille]

State capitalism!!!

Either way, by now it should be obvious that Socialism doesn't work.

Yea cus socialism = burning men alive for 5 dollars. Way to go taking an extreme case and applying it to "socialism" xD

[Nadiru]

I may not be a Finance Major, but I don't really see how either of those things are incompatible with Socialism. It is entirely possible to have market based socialism, which would cover and account for what you are talking about. In fact, in Venezuela, they are pretty much a market based Socialist country, which went to hell because the people running it didn't properly understand the market. If they had had more competent financial advisors and not staked their entire countries well being on a single commodity, they would likely be doing just fine.

Socialism is compatible with finance, but dingbats/advocates like Glorious Leader tend to ignore that in favor of a non-financial version of socialism.

[Glorious Leader]

"Finance as parasite" is a common trope, and one which ignores the contexts in which financial panics impede economic activity.

Its also unfortunately quite an accuratedescription of the largest capitalist countries on the planet. The financial sectors of these countries are enourmrsly bloated, make their money primarily through rent seeking and speculation, and have captured the political process in order to insure regulation will not be an issue. Is that sufficient context? Finance may be compatible with market socialism but we should have reservations about its tendencies.

[PosPosPos]

You are right if I see one car crashing I would consider it bad luck or reckless driver. However, when all ford cars start crashing I'm justified in thinking there is a problem with ford cars

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Most forms of socialism involve central planning (the whole seizing the means of production). It being dependent is the result of a failure in determining where to efficiently allocate resources from the government side.

Thank you for admitting you have no idea what socialism means outside of McCarthyist conspiracy theories.

[NED funded]

Thank you for admitting you have no idea what socialism means outside of McCarthyist conspiracy theories.

Illuminate me: what's the definition of socialism? In fact, go find me a definition of socialism that doesn't involve agents (either workers or states) seizing the means of production.

[s_bushido]

Ah, just when I was wondering where the weekly "lolol venezuela socialism bad! *fapfapfap*" thread was.

[Nadiru]

Its also unfortunately quite an accuratedescription of the largest capitalist countries on the planet. The financial sectors of these countries are enourmrsly bloated, make their money primarily through rent seeking and speculation, and have captured the political process in order to insure regulation will not be an issue. Is that sufficient context? Finance may be compatible with market socialism but we should have reservations about its tendencies.

It's insufficient context because you're implying it happened in a bubble where the finance guys rubbed their hands greedily and said "heh time to fuck these suckers" when in reality it's a more complex issue of (faulty) assumptions about future spending and asset prices, combined with some poor policy choices on the part of governments.

[Glorious Leader]

It's insufficient context because you're implying it happened in a bubble where the finance guys rubbed their hands greedily and said "heh time to fuck these suckers" when in reality it's a more complex issue of (faulty) assumptions about future spending and asset prices, combined with some poor policy choices on the part of governments.

Actually that's exactly what they did.

You remember when congress got a hold of a couple of their internal emails?

"How much of that shitty deal did you sell?"

More broadly the recession was a case of the greatest accounting control fraud in the history of the country probably the world. The best way to rob a bank is to own one.

[PosPosPos]

Illuminate me: what's the definition of socialism? In fact, go find me a definition of socialism that doesn't involve agents (either workers or states) seizing the means of production.

Yeah, because Scandinavian countries are doing so badly on socialism.

At least, in your Trumpet alternative reality. Will just put you on ignore like every other Trumpet.

[NED funded]

Yeah, because Scandinavian countries are doing so badly on socialism.

At least, in your Trumpet alternative reality. Will just put you on ignore like every other Trumpet.

Socdem =/= Socialism, since once again there is no seizing of the means of production in SocDem ideology. Go read the lectures on the road of mont Pelerin or get more informed on what ordoliberalism is.

[Vulgrym]

You know a lot of people said the same thing about communism and technically China is still a communist country. They've adopted a lot of capitalistic ideals into the country, but are still communist. Some consider China a socialist country.

No country works entirely on one system, but instead adopt ideals from all. We think of America as a capitalist country, but we have social mail, social roads, social security, and even social medicine for the elderly. Lots of countries have moved towards socialism but not considered 100% socialist. Like Denmark, Finland, Canada, Sweden, New Zealand, and etc. Europe in general is stepping towards it every day.

Came here to say this.

"Socialism" is a sliding scale, as is "capitalism". In some ways, China is more "capitalist" than the US (anybody who has done business in Shanghai or works for a company that has presence there knows what I'm talking about).

Many of the countries you listed have higher QoL standards than the US and if you've been to any of them, you'll know that citizens there are not exactly hurting for personal wealth

[Nadiru]

Actually that's exactly what they did.

You remember when congress got a hold of a couple of their internal emails?

"How much of that shitty deal did you sell?"

More broadly the recession was a case of the greatest accounting control fraud in the history of the country probably the world. The best way to rob a bank is to own one.

Immediately before and during the crisis, sure. But this crisis was decades in the making, which is what I'm talking about.

[chazus]

I mean for larger nations that is true, but the Kibbutz effectively made the transition from Socialism/Anarchist-ish community to a capitalist one pretty easily. And once again I fail to see how the Kibbutz did not meet the criteria for socialism at the time?

That was my entire point. You can't say a country can switch over to it easily because a literal small community did.

Regardless, Kibbutz was -designed- as a socialist entity, but never really was. Most of its leaders outright stated they were not, and refused to be considered such. Furthermore, most of the economy was used towards annexing or simply taking land to expand, and ousting the people there.

That's like saying American GDP goes into military funding so we can buy other countries, and calling that 'socialism'

[Glorious Leader]

Immediately before and during the crisis, sure. But this crisis was decades in the making, which is what I'm talking about.

Oh sure it's been brewing since the 80's but that only buttresses the point really. The systemic deregulation of finance led to not only it's increase in size but the propensity to which actors within finance would commit crimes.

[Nadiru]

Oh sure it's been brewing since the 80's but that only buttresses the point really. The systemic deregulation of finance led to not only it's increase in size but the propensity to which actors within finance would commit crimes.

Yeah but now we've changed the subject from "finance isn't necessary" to "finance has been abused."

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah but now we've changed the subject from "finance isn't necessary" to "finance has been abused."

I dont recall saying finance "isnt necessary". I dont necessarilly think that it is but if it is then its radically different from what finance looks like today. That finance is essentially parasitical and harms economic activity should be evident from what weve discussed. That it can potentially be harnessed to be of some use is neither here nor there.