Sylvanas Knowingly Damns Her Rangers?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Oooh, right, that place! Forgot about that since I just hate questing in Silverpine these days. Yeah they went rather crazy there as well from what I remember.




And this is why I see Sylvanas as a villain (Nothing wrong with being a bad guy, just terrible when they are being justified) - because in my opinion, the best way you can use the undead is to have them fight their former friends and have them terrified by knowing they are being assaulted by the ones they loved and cared for.

...BUT YA KNOW, THEY GET A CHOICE AFTERWARDS! And... of course there are SO DARN MANY of them who goes "Well I murdered my friends, I'm a monster, I am feeling guilt... so of course I'm going to join you guys so you can do it to more people! Hey, I was a friend to this family once, you should TOTALLY do to half their family as you did to me!" rather than just wanting to be put down before they make things worse.




Not trying to be a jerk, just feel like that answers itself. Looots of corpses and not all of them used. And besides, I do feel that the amounts we see in Hillsbrad - and even more so in Durotar during the time of the Legion attack near the shore - are a darn lot. I just don't see anything that says otherwise.

That way I see it: Sylvanas fetched all the banshees she could get, personally. I certainly didn't see a whole lot of those Dark Rangers early in WoW...

The dark rangers showed up in wotlk and the arthas book, doesn't mean that they didn't exsist before hand.

[Mehrunes]

So no frenzy with the Hillsbrad evacuees at Fenris Isle?

Well, they didn't die and became Worgen, which cannot be resurrected by the Val'kyr.

[Sigxy]

Just because she wasn't the Banshee Queen when Velonara was resurrected doesn't mean she'd call her something else, especially publicly, now. There was no way for Sylvanas to have resurrected her after she already broke free from the Scourge given how Velonara appeared in the story before Sylvanas' Val'kyr grew strong enough to resurrect anything other than humans.


It's kinda doubtful time passes the same way or is perceived in the same way in the afterlife as it does in the living world. Sylvanas had problems discerning what's happening now immediately after her suicide (and she didn't even fully go to the afterlife since the Val'kyr held her spirit back).

I will have to disagree with that. From the way I see it, there was definitely some time that passed there.

Edit: Also, I do think that she had enough powers of her own to raise banshees. Given how Dark Rangers can use 'Black Arrows' to raise newly killed people into skeletons, having such a powerful Dark Ranger who was given the title 'The Banshee Queen' wouldn't be too unbelievable that she could make more banshees.

The dark rangers showed up in wotlk and the arthas book, doesn't mean that they didn't exsist before hand.

Right. So, where were they then, until that point? They all couldn't have been hiding. And it couldn't have been the lack of 'models' for them since they used a pale night elf model for Sylvanas until that point, and there were some... dodgy-looking high/blood elves they could've used, like the one in Scholomance.

[Mehrunes]

And meanwhile they've killed several of their former mates. How wonderful! How just! No wonder everyone loves her!

Today on "Adventures with straw".

One developer explicitly said "No", while others saw fit to put scenes in the game where she rezzes recently dead opponents and has them turn on their mates. It's like "Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"

Ask a CDev was a team effort from the writers. Newer lore trumps older lore. Plus that comment was OOG, acting as Word of God, and specifically clarifying those scenes you're whining about.

Exactly! And Sylvanas knows this will happen and takes full advantage of it!

Now imagine you're an average soldier fighting for your homeland. One minute you're sharing a bunker with your sword brothers and sword sisters - people you would die for - and the next you've had some dark sorcery practiced on you so you turn and slay them instead. Would you be singing the Dark Lady's praises?

If Sylvanas cared about giving people a fair choice, she would wait until the battle was over and raise them under controlled conditions where they couldn't harm anyone before they were in their right minds again. That would be the civilized, ethical thing to do. Sylvanas is neither of those things.

Then perhaps it's swell that the only case in which we've seen it at play, we haven't seen anyone singing praises towards Sylvanas. Also, that time it was used as a military necessity after Alliance made a surprise, truce breaking attack and Koltira got his ass handled to him. Who'd have thunk, Sylvanas only used the dirty tactic in regards to resurrection in response to Alliance acting dirty. But let's gloss over that and whine about she's Hitler squared.

Not trying to be a jerk, just feel like that answers itself. Looots of corpses and not all of them used. And besides, I do feel that the amounts we see in Hillsbrad - and even more so in Durotar during the time of the Legion attack near the shore - are a darn lot. I just don't see anything that says otherwise.

That way I see it: Sylvanas fetched all the banshees she could get, personally. I certainly didn't see a whole lot of those Dark Rangers early in WoW...

Except the point of the initial question clearly was that we don't see any huge amounts of them. The Dark Rangers in Hillsbrad are located only around the ruins of Southshore. VS Forsaken crawling all over the zone. I only mentioned the Scourge part because you tried to bend a hypothetical huge amount into something somehow damning to the Forsaken, which is an assumption on top of an assumption. And when did the Scourge left corpses they produced unused? When did Forsaken have any corpse gathering expedition into Quel'thalas?

I will have to disagree with that. From the way I see it, there was definitely some time that passed there.

"Some time" conveys quite a different message than "quite a while". I'm not sure how you extrapolated "quite a while" from merely "time" (not even some time) in the first place. Could have been five minutes for all we know.

Edit: Also, I do think that she had enough powers of her own to raise banshees. Given how Dark Rangers can use 'Black Arrows' to raise newly killed people into skeletons, having such a powerful Dark Ranger who was given the title 'The Banshee Queen' wouldn't be too unbelievable that she could make more banshees.

And yet we never see any Dark Rangers actually resurrect anything in lore. Same with Sylvanas. If Sylvanas could resurrect people, requiring Val'kyr as a solution to the plight of the Forsaken makes no sense.

Right. So, where were they then, until that point? They all couldn't have been hiding. And it couldn't have been the lack of 'models' for them since they used a pale night elf model for Sylvanas until that point, and there were some... dodgy-looking high/blood elves they could've used, like the one in Scholomance.

Dark Rangers were already a thing in W3. What's your idea here? That things introduced in WoW don't exist in-lore prior to their introduction?

[Sigxy]

"Some time" conveys quite a different message than "quite a while". I'm not sure how you extrapolated "quite a while" from merely "time" (not even some time) in the first place. Could have been five minutes for all we know.

And yet we never see any Dark Rangers actually resurrect anything in lore. Same with Sylvanas. If Sylvanas could resurrect people, requiring Val'kyr as a solution to the plight of the Forsaken makes no sense.

Dark Rangers were already a thing in W3. What's your idea here? That things introduced in WoW don't exist in-lore prior to their introduction?

I don't think "some time" has any definition at all. Someone could easily say "I will be going away for some time." and that might be years. And since they never made it specific, it's hard to tell which is the truth on that - so I'll pick the one that makes most sense to me.

And honestly, if a mere, 'standard' necromancer can raise undead - why shouldn't someone who is considered a 'Banshee Queen', the most powerful banshee AND Dark Ranger in the history of Warcraft, be able to raise banshees? The Val'kyr only really serve 2 purposes. 1: Mass raising. I do think that while Sylvanas can necromancy, she can't really mass produce the forsaken at such fast rate. And of course, the obvious, 2: Keeping herself alive.

And thing is, if you say "We see Dark Rangers in Warcraft 3." then why is it so hard to believe they can necromancy since, already in WC3, they could raise skeletons via their Black Arrow ability (Not to mention her, gasp, mind control ability which she also has in HotS) - something that even exists in WoW. I know they existed since then - but not NEARLY enough to be this many, unless you said ALL of them were hiding during Vanilla and TBC, which I do not believe at all.

[Gelannerai]

Well, they didn't die and became Worgen, which cannot be resurrected by the Val'kyr.

I thought someone earlier mentioned how the Hillsbrad refugees that were being raised were immediately swearing fealty to Sylvanas?

[Sigxy]

I thought someone earlier mentioned how the Hillsbrad refugees that were being raised were immediately swearing fealty to Sylvanas?

As said, was a while since I last did the quest, but I'm pretty sure you kill off a bunch of the humans there while you have a Val'kyr with you before you reach the top floor where you just get to see them accept the Worgen curse.

[Lupinemancer]

Well Sylvanas has besically become the new Lich Queen, doing to others what she hated Arthas for much for doing to her. She's a big hypicrite and I hope we get to kill her soon as it's loooong overdo for her to die.

[Sigxy]

Well Sylvanas has besically become the new Lich Queen, doing to others what she hated Arthas for much for doing to her. She's a big hypicrite and I hope we get to kill her soon as it's loooong overdo for her to die.

...How many Val'kyrs does she have? Since it's either gonna be an expansion we kill her a bunch of times, or it's gonna be like the Elisande fight which... could be pretty cool to be honest. Bring her down to 0 health, get raised for 2nd phase, etc.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well Sylvanas has besically become the new Lich Queen, doing to others what she hated Arthas for much for doing to her. She's a big hypicrite and I hope we get to kill her soon as it's loooong overdo for her to die.

Gotta love "arguments" like this because hey are too easy to dismantle, not that the poster making them are willing to change their minds.

People have been shrieking that she will be a raid boss for what, 12 years now?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Oooh, right, that place! Forgot about that since I just hate questing in Silverpine these days. Yeah they went rather crazy there as well from what I remember.

And this is why I see Sylvanas as a villain (Nothing wrong with being a bad guy, just terrible when they are being justified) - because in my opinion, the best way you can use the undead is to have them fight their former friends and have them terrified by knowing they are being assaulted by the ones they loved and cared for.

...BUT YA KNOW, THEY GET A CHOICE AFTERWARDS! And... of course there are SO DARN MANY of them who goes "Well I murdered my friends, I'm a monster, I am feeling guilt... so of course I'm going to join you guys so you can do it to more people! Hey, I was a friend to this family once, you should TOTALLY do to half their family as you did to me!" rather than just wanting to be put down before they make things worse.

For it to really be a choice, it would need to happen while you were of sound mind and BEFORE you'd been used as a tool to kill your friends.

- - - Updated - - -

Gotta love "arguments" like this because hey are too easy to dismantle, not that the poster making them are willing to change their minds.

People have been shrieking that she will be a raid boss for what, 12 years now?

She doesn't need to become a raid boss to be as bad as Arthas. After all, how many Horde would jump at the chance to have Arthas as their War Chief?

[Friendlyimmolation]

For it to really be a choice, it would need to happen while you were of sound mind and BEFORE you'd been used as a tool to kill your friends.

A choice is a choice. The Alliance and Horde were at war, not holding hands in lordaeron. Should the forsaken going to go "hey all, guys who are trying to kill us, show of hands who wants to be Forsaken after we kill you all?"

She doesn't need to become a raid boss to be as bad as Arthas. After all, how many Horde would jump at the chance to have Arthas as their War Chief?

Shes not even close to being as bad as Arthas, Just because she bullies the Alliance or something.

[Sigxy]

Gotta love "arguments" like this because hey are too easy to dismantle, not that the poster making them are willing to change their minds.

People have been shrieking that she will be a raid boss for what, 12 years now?

Problem is that you'll have people like me around, I guess!

I grew up with Warcraft. The first game memory I have is of WC1 and I've played WoW kinda half my life. I have always been interested in the lore, I've seen it all happen, I've gained feelings for the characters.

And Sylvanas is a character I do not like, she's a character I want gone. The stuff she has done is bad and, even if she isn't QUITE as bad as the Lich King, I see her as being on the same path leading to it. It's just a matter of time.

I've reached a point I just can't get anything from her that I like, other than when she has messed up (and NOT when it includes other people's suffering, while at it), and having read all the stuff people say about Sylvanas all these years - good or bad - I am sticking to that her story should've been done after WotLK and should've just stayed dead. If I'm supposed to believe ANYTHING that's good with her, I will have to find that out on my own in the game or, annoyingly, the novels. But so far they just made her look worse and worse... ;_:

[Arrashi]

Gotta love "arguments" like this because hey are too easy to dismantle, not that the poster making them are willing to change their minds.

People have been shrieking that she will be a raid boss for what, 12 years now?

It was long 12 years, but a good one. Let us hope for 12 more.

Also: 12 more years of high elves not being playable race.

[Friendlyimmolation]

And Sylvanas is a character I do not like, she's a character I want gone. The stuff she has done is bad and, even if she isn't QUITE as bad as the Lich King, I see her as being on the same path leading to it. It's just a matter of time

Do you only have knowledge of Sylvanas from Alliance side Quests?

Becoming a lichking is such a leap from her current status, its removes all her allies and sets herself up to be killed. Something Sylvanas obviously doesn't want.

[Arrashi]

She doesn't need to become a raid boss to be as bad as Arthas. After all, how many Horde would jump at the chance to have Arthas as their War Chief?

Hmmm...not many i guess ? I mean i would rather have mudmug.

[Sigxy]

Do you only have knowledge of Sylvanas from Alliance side Quests?

Becoming a lichking is such a leap from her current status, its removes all her allies and sets herself up to be killed. Something Sylvanas obviously doesn't want.

Both. My Main character is a Blood elf, but I've done all the quests before and after Cataclysm in the vanilla zones. And I have played the Alliance side quests up until Legion, I'm just waiting for the heirlooms and my AK to reach 50 and I will be doing the new zones as Alliance too (But there really shouldn't be any differences aside from Stormheim, right?)

[Mehrunes]

I don't think "some time" has any definition at all. Someone could easily say "I will be going away for some time." and that might be years. And since they never made it specific, it's hard to tell which is the truth on that - so I'll pick the one that makes most sense to me.

So your conviction it was any significant amount for sure comes from what?

And honestly, if a mere, 'standard' necromancer can raise undead - why shouldn't someone who is considered a 'Banshee Queen', the most powerful banshee AND Dark Ranger in the history of Warcraft, be able to raise banshees? The Val'kyr only really serve 2 purposes. 1: Mass raising. I do think that while Sylvanas can necromancy, she can't really mass produce the forsaken at such fast rate. And of course, the obvious, 2: Keeping herself alive.

Because the Banshee Queen stems from a queen of Banshees and doesn't imply any necromantic capabilities whatsoever? How comes that Nathanos, someone called a 'Blightcaller' doesn't call any blights.

And thing is, if you say "We see Dark Rangers in Warcraft 3." then why is it so hard to believe they can necromancy since, already in WC3, they could raise skeletons via their Black Arrow ability (Not to mention her, gasp, mind control ability which she also has in HotS) - something that even exists in WoW. I know they existed since then - but not NEARLY enough to be this many, unless you said ALL of them were hiding during Vanilla and TBC, which I do not believe at all.

I'm not sure what was hard to understand about "in lore", but game abilities mean squat. And since when does W3 offer any realistic representation of population? Do you also believe that Orgrimmar's population is three ships worth of Orcs?

I thought someone earlier mentioned how the Hillsbrad refugees that were being raised were immediately swearing fealty to Sylvanas?

That was in Forsaken High Command. It's unknown who these people were or how they died.

She doesn't need to become a raid boss to be as bad as Arthas. After all, how many Horde would jump at the chance to have Arthas as their War Chief?

Zero?

[Sigxy]

So your conviction it was any significant amount for sure comes from what?

Because the Banshee Queen stems from a queen of Banshees and doesn't imply any necromantic capabilities whatsoever? How comes that Nathanos, someone called a 'Blightcaller' doesn't call any blights.

I'm not sure what was hard to understand about "in lore", but game abilities mean squat. And since when does W3 offer any realistic representation of population? Do you also believe that Orgrimmar's population is three ships worth of Orcs?

First: Since there's absolutely no definition of time in that chat, it's probably up to whatever we think it is until stated otherwise. So yeah, I could be wrong, but could also be right. For now that's what I choose.

Second: For someone who leads so many forsaken, and is undead as well, it would make sense for them to learn some necromancy. EVERYONE can learn it.

Third: We only saw one Dark Ranger in the campaign of WC3, Sylvanas. People say there are more, they even refer to WC3 to it, so that must mean they referred to the ones in the custom battles (don't blame them entirely for that, a LOT of the figures you see in WoW got their names from those randomly named heroes!) and if we can go that far, why aren't we allowed to include their abilities? Nothing says "This character exists BUT ONLY TO A CERTAIN DEGREE!" - and Sylvanas certainly did have some black arrows.

If anything, I can't think of any abilities that existed in WC3 that the WoW versions DIDN'T have!

[Lordcthulhu]

isn't slyvanas main job right now just trying to survive