The praised content of BC and WotlK

[Zoldor]

TBC is praised a lot by people on bigger servers in bigger guilds at the time. The raids were not all that difficult, as a lot of the problem was fielding the team, most of the bosses were pretty easy, but like most raids, one or two tricky ones or new mechanics. Sunwell easily the exception.

Now, if you were on a smaller server and in a smaller guild that got stuck in the Kara/Gruul limbo due to, small rosters, failed raid mergers etc. TBC was redundant until isle showed up. Small server suffered a lot during TBC and the end of Vanilla. A couple 25 man guilds per faction who probably came from the 40 man scene before so their rosters were mostly full for the entire expansion. You spent most your time praying you could find a group for 5 mans and actually finish it or get someone with half a brain in the group. And you ran Kara....a lot...like...a lot...

Enter Wrath which was the saving grace for small servers and guilds as 10 man raiding became a thing. The problem a lot of folks had is wrath upped the raiding challenge and a lot of the Vanilla TBC people who were heroes then started to get exposed for sucking or being dead weight carries in a larger group setting. (this is so often over looked in the 25 man and 40 man scene when people look back). I do find it interesting that people hail MoP as difficult content, when really MoP dungeons were a return to the Wrath dungeon style. Pull it all, AoE call it a day. Which even in wrath didn't start until the Ulduar gear jump/ToC gear jump. I see why wrath is hailed as number 1 for a lot of people, it made the game accessible to all group sizes and realm sizes, while still providing some of the most challenging content to date (Ulduar mostly with ICC close behind 25H Anub was also tough). While it did have some filler; Naxx (still an enjoyable raid.....DANCE!). Also, Wintersgrasp was a great addition for PvP people.

Overall mostly nostalgia or people being part of one of the groups that content fit in those eras, or they came from TBC and the Kara rerun to wrath where all doors were open. I miss the first iteration of LFD, when for a short period it was realm only, was a great recruiting tool.

Currently I find Legion fun, and getting better with most patches, while it like all expansions has some glaring sore thumb issues, the raids have been good, there is a lot of shit to do currently in game (despite it being redundant dailies, it provides a power progression), we are finally reaching a point where alts aren't a chore. Legion is looking up. Really the only weak expansion on a whole is WoD, and a lot of that has to do with the terrible story, over emphasis on garrisons, and the sadness that was shipyard (which I think we could see again in an updated form on Argus)

[Daffan]

And I think that made things better. I wouldn't say that Vanilla or BC is perfect. I enjoyed the Wrath model of being able to quickly gear yourself up so your friends could start a new account, get boosted by your main, and then quickly get gear from 5 mans that is good enough to walk into ICC 10 man normal. I'm not sure how that would make Vanilla or BC feel though. I know a lot of the raiding restriction there was simply due to not having attunements or gear from previous raids and that is a little annoying.

If they could create a Vanilla or BC 2 with some of the systems in place from the future then I think those expansions would be hailed as the best. Adding in more complex boss mechanics, keeping the more complex priority system instead of the rotations they had back then, putting the new group finder system (NOT LFD LFR) in so people could stay out of trade chat when trying to make their own dungeon and raid groups, adding some form of leeway into the game so that newer players aren't a royal fucking burden to your guild, reducing the raid size of vanilla to 20-25, stuff like that. I know it wouldn't be identical and there would be many people who would bash the fuck out of this "casual baby" server but I think it could be interesting.

If they let you gear up instantly ala Sunwell except the whole TBC expansion + Vanilla, content drought would have existed back in Vanilla/TBC instead of only showing up much later during ICC. Those 5 ICC mans started content drought for real, because everyone could skip huge swathes of good content (ULDUAR!) and then complain that there was nothing left to do. Ruby Sanctum was a direct response to this issue.

However, systems like Flex and CRZ help a lot and actually seem decent to implement without ruining anything, a net positive. Seriously the biggest problem with old WoW was 40 man raids blew and raid sizes in TBC, casual guilds needed to run 2-3 Karazhan groups so they could run 1 Gruul's/Magtheridons. If they couldn't do that, they'd never move to t5. Hence everyone saying they love Karazhan as their favorite raid because that's the raid they got stuck at. Flex would have solved this instantly, while still perservering the original linear progression model T4 > T5 > T6 - which also brings the benefit of no content droughts. Unlike say, Cata where you could skip from level 85 straight into Dragon Soul with the 378ilvl 5 mans and then run out of content for the next 12 months because you skipped t11, t12, heroics, zg/za and everything in between.

[Hctaz]

If they let you gear up instantly ala Sunwell except the whole TBC expansion + Vanilla, content drought would have existed back in Vanilla/TBC instead of only showing up much later during ICC. Those 5 ICC mans started content drought for real, because everyone could skip huge swathes of good content (ULDUAR!) and then complain that there was nothing left to do. Ruby Sanctum was a direct response to this issue.

However, systems like Flex and CRZ help a lot and actually seem decent to implement without ruining anything, a net positive. Seriously the biggest problem with old WoW was 40 man raids blew and raid sizes in TBC, casual guilds needed to run 2-3 Karazhan groups so they could run 1 Gruul's/Magtheridons. If they couldn't do that, they'd never move to t5. Hence everyone saying they love Karazhan as their favorite raid because that's the raid they got stuck at. Flex would have solved this instantly, while still perservering the original linear progression model T4 > T5 > T6 - which also brings the benefit of no content droughts. Unlike say, Cata where you could skip from level 85 straight into Dragon Soul with the 378ilvl 5 mans and then run out of content for the next 12 months because you skipped t11, t12, heroics, zg/za and everything in between.

I see what you mean but I don't think the introduction of catch up mechanics is what causes content drought. The raids prior to DS and ICC only lasted for 5-7 months. ICC, DS, Siege, HFC.. the all lasted for over an entire year. That has nothing to do with people skipping over old stuff, though it is good stuff. I wouldn't mind attunements to be brought back in the form of a more simple BC style though. Something like how you couldn't enter X raid until you finished Y and Z raids first and did a short quest. This would keep the old raids at least semi relevant but they should also introduce catch up gear systems so that you don't need to actually sit there and progress through the old raids like previous guilds did. Maybe a week or two max versus the months it took the general population to clear it on mythic.

[Deleted]

There was nowhere near the level of content in BC and WOTLK as there is in Legion, but everything was less accessible back then so you had to dedicate time to generating gold and keeping your character raid ready.

There were no raid-wide food buffs, gear had to be enchanted and gemmed and was not ilevel driven. Healing and mana potions were required. Loot tables were fixed and gearing was more complex. Re-agents had to be purchased. There was no free gold or items from missions, and if you wanted a resource you had to purchase it from the AH or have the profession to farm or craft it, and this meant leveling fishing for example for the best buff foods. If you wanted gold there was limited daily quests and heading out to finish leveling quest lines at max level was an effective way of generating an income.

This all meant it took significantly longer to be 'raid ready', and you spent your time doing this rather than world quests and ordering missions.

But it also added an element of pride in turning up to a raid fully stocked up with the best buff food, potions, reagents and weapon oils.

So there is objectively more content now, but I never felt like I lacked content in BC and WOTLK, and I found it more satisfying getting that 10% extra raid performance through obtaining the best buffs, potions, enchants, gems etc. than simply grinding artifact power. You also had to progress through the raids far more than you do nowadays where there is a catchup mechanic for every tier.

Warlords was the only expansion I felt lacked content, although I didn't play Cata or Mists

[lanesia24]

Burning Crusade was absolutely awful in my opinion. You basically raided or there was nothing to do at all. Class design was absolutely horrendous - I played a warlock and just spammed shadowbolt and curse of doom was about the only thing used.

[Grobovshik]

Legion had FANTASTIC raids,

Is recolored sunwell with a few interesting mechanics considered a fantastic raid nowdays?

[Deleted]

Wotlkis gloryfied casual garbage.

[Halicia]

I think that everyone will agree that nostalgia or not, BC was the best WoW expansion when it was released.

[Luckx]

Vanilla,TBC and WOTLK had better lore and storyline.

WOTLK had good questing content.

[Daffan]

I see what you mean but I don't think the introduction of catch up mechanics is what causes content drought. The raids prior to DS and ICC only lasted for 5-7 months. ICC, DS, Siege, HFC.. the all lasted for over an entire year. That has nothing to do with people skipping over old stuff, though it is good stuff. I wouldn't mind attunements to be brought back in the form of a more simple BC style though. Something like how you couldn't enter X raid until you finished Y and Z raids first and did a short quest. This would keep the old raids at least semi relevant but they should also introduce catch up gear systems so that you don't need to actually sit there and progress through the old raids like previous guilds did. Maybe a week or two max versus the months it took the general population to clear it on mythic.

In TBC. Every raid except Sunwell/ZA(lol) was unlocked by May 2007. (TBC was Jan 2007 - Nov 2008 for reference).

By time, Black Temple was out for almost 11 months before Sunwell. There was no content drought.

If you had modern day catch-up mechanics back then. Everyone could have skipped T4, T5 and started T6 Black Temple when it released. Less content to work through, much easier to hit the end and create the infamous content drought.

[Deleted]

It's a hard question, nothing is exactly perfect. Old or New.

I like progressing bottom up instead of just skipping over things or being handed freebies. Farming AP feels like a waste because of AK (Now this is 100% not true if your bleeding edge Mythic raider), farming gear is partially a waste because better free stuff is right around the corner and I can already do whatever I want with the 880+ (WF/TF) they gave me for free. (Seriously, people are holding shards because of TF with ToS increase...)

In regards to the content curve you are describing. The only reason it was "you would never see most bosses" ala TBC/Vanilla was because of what I already said. No Flex, Premade finder and CRZ. You add those three things to TBC or even Vanilla, and all of a sudden a whole lot more people would have seen Naxxramas 60 and Black Temple/Sunwell. It wasn't the linear progression, it was the horrible logistical requirements that held people back.

I don't even consider LFR content, normal minimum even as a casual.

I share your thoughts. The hardest part of Vanilla was definetly getting the people together. There couldn't be endless guilds raiding Naxxramas simply because of 4 Horsemen with 8 geared warrior tanks for example. But that kind of design is not good at all. Back in BC there were massive problems when other guilds recruited and stole our members. And that happened the whole times. The two best guilds sucked away our best, not that loyal members and that lead to problems.
The design was a flaw. But mentioned at another point, the gear progression was completely different, and that saved a lot of guilds back then. You could take much worse equipped people and the difference in DPS was not that high. Today you can't take undergeared people to Mythic raids when all others are not completely equipped.

But because of that flexible raids and CRZ are a must need these days. I don't think the problem is the system of raids, it's more the inflation of gear.

And with more thoughts about the time in BC I recognize how hateful the community was. So many feuds between guilds, some guilds were befriended while the others shared a deep hate. And I know that was not only happening on my realm. That kind of community is not the community I would want again. But still I laugh about some fights back then, it was entertaining at least.

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In TBC. Every raid except Sunwell/ZA(lol) was unlocked by May 2007. (TBC was Jan 2007 - Nov 2008 for reference).

By time, Black Temple was out for almost 11 months before Sunwell. There was no content drought.

If you had modern day catch-up mechanics back then. Everyone could have skipped T4, T5 and started T6 Black Temple when it released. Less content to work through, much easier to hit the end and create the infamous content drought.

Yeah, you said it here. I guess that is the problem. Without Catch-Up but WITH Flex Raids the raid content would stay longer.

But that is raiding. There are people not raiding at all and claim there was more and better content in BC. And at that part I am pretty sure it's just hate/nostalgia they have to release. Because even repeating M+ and trivial WQs is more content than you ever had back in BC, where almost all other content was also trivial and unrewarding.

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Is recolored sunwell with a few interesting mechanics considered a fantastic raid nowdays?

Because a design decides what content is good. Fuck off Bossfights, the design must be good and everything is K.

Could guys like you stay out of this thread? There are nice conversations in this thread right now without hate/fanboyism/nostalgia views.

[gushDH]

It's only because you were younger and life was nicer and easier in general. Also, the game was much newer back then.

[Deleted]

Sterile discussion.

[Allenseiei]

WotLK was the expansion I unsubbed the most due to completely stupid easy content and the worst raid ever (ToC).

You had nothing to do other than raiding. You could only do inconsecuential dailies that only give gold and rep or the usual PvP.
They time gated ToC and ICC just to increase the longevity of the raid (1 boss/wing per week and limited attempts on last bosses). Ulduar and malygos were a freeze of fresh air in a really bad expansion.

[Deleted]

wouldn't say simply nostalgia, if those two expansions happened today, yes they wouldn't be praised as much, but they didn't come out today, they came out a decade ago, a freaking decade ago. Legion has made improvements to wow, that is undeniable, but at the end of the day its the same train track content with different skins we had back then. The difference of back then, server community was a thing, quecraft wasn't a thing, classes didn't feel a shell of their former self, ect.

How can anybody say that we had the same gameplay after the excessive pruning and talent system changes in the last 2 expansions? oO

Granted, the importance of CC in dungeon content has lessened since Wrath, but it's incredible how rare CC and interrupts happen now and in WoD. Back in Classic in Scholomance my mage was sometimes responsible for pulling groups, not the tank (sheep one mob, interrupt the other, run with the 2nd and 3rd to the tank...) and in TBC, I also had a blast playing mage not only as a DPS class but most of all controller - where kiting was as important as focus damage, CC and interrupts. Magister's Terrace was the pinnacle of all this, handling 2nd boss flares singlehandedly as a frost mage, and then shining with all CC options at the 3rd boss. Or tanking as a mage in Gruul's Lair, this was so cool. And then came the AoE fest and timed runs and it's all so boring.

[Hashtronaut]

The world was a different place then, people were different social media and technology has quickened the pace of life, you might not think so but this has an effect on how people interact with others, even in a video game.

Sure the mechanics and style of the game were different but I don't think this is the only reason for this nostalgic relentless love of those two xpacs. In addition many people have been playing this game for many xpacs and many years there isn't that sense of wonder, or exploration.

Many people that came in during MoP love that xpac and it was good but think it's more so to do when people came into the game. Pretty simply put if Wrath or BC especially was implemented now (10years later) the game would be almost impossible to play for many gamers of today.

[Grobovshik]

Because a design decides what content is good. Fuck off Bossfights, the design must be good and everything is K.

Bossfights are mediocre. Augur and Guldan mythic is kinda cool, but its still 2 out of 10 bosses. Mechanics are mostly boring, even in WoD first 2 raids were far superior.

[Niwes]

Hello dears,

we all know BC and WotlK are the two praised expansions because of their content. Some say the quality was the best or the content at all. Even though it was the prime time playing World of Warcraft for me, too, I try to reflect the times and got a bit confused.

Why were those expansion the most enjoyable for me?

I really enjoy Legion though and think the content and quantity and quality is fantastic (even though the storytelling on Broken Shores is not that good, but from the view of gameplay the game presents you a lot right now, you are never going to hit a wall and have nothing to do left -> if you feel exhausted it's your personal problem).

But why did I enjoy TBC and WotlK?

Back in TBC I've been a Semi-Hardcore Raider and a Hardcore Raider in WotlK.

In TBC I raided and did some Arena. That's it. Sometimes dailys, but the dailys were not urgently needed so If I only did them If I had enough time to waste. Farming Buff Food and Flasks/Potions. That was whole World of Warcraft in TBC. The quality of raids was good, you still had a progression, that was fantastic as you had to start on your level and had to work through to the good guilds.

WotlK was bascially the same but with more Dailys and easier ways to get Alts equipped with badges vendors. Back then I raided hardcore as mentioned above and it was more time consuming, but in WotlK I had that time. Still beside raiding and dailys I had nothing else to do. Though Wintergrasp was always fun, but on a fix schedule.
The raids beside the worst raid in history with ToC and the first Tier with Naxx revamp/Malygos/Sartharion were probably the best raids in the game so far.
While you could do more with your Alts it ended in Wotlk with the cancer addon Gearscore. Since that day it has been harder to get more "content" for alts.

I am pretty sure right now that I had the most fun in MoP and right now in Legion, but my brain says TBC and WotlK were great. I guess that is a full load of nostalgia. Right now I feel extremely satisfied as I am always able to do something I like. There are so many different aspects I can play this game even though the biggest part is still raiding in two so far really good raids imo.
I want to play my Druid now and Heal? I search for a M+ or random raid, if my mood ist complete lazy I run LFR. I want to do something with my main? I can run BGs, push high M+, do World Quests, make transmog or mount runs.
EDIT: Since 7.2 playing with alts is easy af. With 3 hours ingame time on 110 my freshly leveled hunter has 45 points in his main weapon and a pretty good ILVL to start with.

Still my brain says: WotlK and TBC was great. My eyes say: The quality and quantity of content has never been greater.


What is the reason, what was the actual content of those praised expansions, that they are called the best expansions? It feels like a misfunction between heart and brain.

Simple:

They werent based on RNG, nor were they designed for play-2-hours-every-2-weeks players. they had gear/char/content progression. they had goals you straight worked towards them. and nothing of that based on RNG.

they were simple. they were straight. they supported the sense of a mmorpg (and as a side effect this leaded to a better community overall).

this were the reasons ppl liked them. the rest is rose tinted stuff.

[Dentelan]

Both BC and WOTLK were hated during their time. The people who claim they love them (and vanilla) often did not play during those times.

BC brought wellfare epics which was going to "ruin the game".

WOTLK brought casual raiding which was going to "ruin the game".

The one xpac which was actually much loved during it's time was MOP. I have played since 2005 (active during all xpacks) and MOP is by far my favorite. It combines the narrative focus of WOTLK and diverse (or hard if you wish) group content of BC.

These guys were right. Now game is ruined.

[Deleted]

How can anybody say that we had the same gameplay after the excessive pruning and talent system changes in the last 2 expansions? oO

I'm sorry but that reflecting the gameplay is such a bullshit and you are not alone saying this, but that argument coming up in every thread has always the same answers.

Ability Pruning? In BC we had rotations with ONE SPELL. There were only some classes you can count on one hand that had a more complex rotation. Having tons of abilities that were never used or maybe once at a special bossfight is not gameplay.

And Talent trees? Because you had a choice in that? You must have been pretty casual. If you didn't have the right skillpoints spent you had no chance in any Semi-hardcore guild already.