Anatomy of a Russian Propaganda Troll

[Deleted]

And what exactly do you want Russians to "learn" from this history?

The same as we germans learned from history.

Totalitarism is no solution. A dictator is no savior, but a criminal who wants everything for his own.

Abusing a scapegoat, be it jews, be it muslims, is no solution.

[Shalcker]

Abusing a scapegoat, be it jews, be it muslims, is no solution.

Or Russians.

[Deleted]

Or Russians.

Who is abusing Russians?

We talk about Putin and his Web brigades in this thread.

Putin isnt russia. Russia is a great country with a great culture and a interesting history, in special consdiering the fact it was once part of the west.

Putin is a single criminal who unfortunately is in power and who knows how to create propaganda.

[Shalcker]

Who is abusing Russians?

We have multiple threads to this end with Americans; they do not make a distinction.

We talk about Putin and his Web brigades in this thread.

Those are not necessarily Putin's Web Brigades. They can just as well be Russian web brigades of non-Putin origin, pursuing similar threads of thought, or just going with whoever pays (if they are of paid kind - not all are).

"Stalin support" is strictly non-Putin thing, for example; Putin loves everything Imperial like Solzhenitsyn, and only holds to Soviet past for "Cult of WW2 Victory".

Putin isnt russia. Russia is a great country with a great culture and a interesting history, in special consdiering the fact it was once part of the west.

Putin is a single criminal who unfortunately is in power and who knows how to create propaganda.

Everyone knows how to create propaganda, it isn't some kind of "lost art". And you're quite transparently full of it too.

And it's not surprising, they really went overboard on de-Nazification propaganda, so it's easy to sneak the rest to already "opened" minds.

Putin isn't the problem; he is result of the system and if you remove him the system will get same one in his seat. And if you remove the system everything will collapse.

So you got to evolve system to different result. And that means keeping Putin for now.

[downnola]

Fuck that. This "Stalin narrative" isn't really about past, but about future. Positive things that should be preserved; not throwing away the baby with bathwater as the saying goes.

Yeah, nah. There is no baby in the bathwater with Stalin. It's acid you should throw away entirely. The same goes for Lenin and Trotsky.

...and then you somehow expect them to rise up against Putin?

You're making assumptions and doing it badly. Putin is an entirely different subject altogether. I don't like Putin, but he's no Stalin. He's an admirer of Stolypin maybe, but that's as far as I'd go as far as historical comparisons.

[Deleted]

We have multiple threads to this end with Americans; they do not make a distinction.

They should, as bashing russia is against the forum rules.

Those are not necessarily Putin's Web Brigades.

They are helping Putins agenda. I have no idea if its just "fans" of putin organizing web brigades or his very own regime.

They can just as well be Russian web brigades of non-Putin origin, pursuing similar threads of thought, or just going with whoever pays (if they are of paid kind - not all are).

They are propaganda machines which benefit the current leader of russia.

And you're quite transparently full of it too.

Not at all. But nice try. You want to pretend every truth just is a point of view and every lie just is another opinion, and every comment just is propaganda. While you know yourself that it isnt the case.

And it's not surprising, they really went overboard on de-Nazification propaganda, so it's easy to sneak the rest to already "opened" minds.

Try fewer conspiracy theories. They do not really well in discussions like this, where people talk about propaganda.

Putin isn't the problem; he is result of the system and if you remove him the system will get same one in his seat. And if you remove the system everything will collapse.

No, actually Putin is the main culprit of the dictatorship he created. Once he is gone russia becomes a multiple entity regime, where multiple people want to become what putin currently is. Based on that this could lead to democracy, as different followers want to get in power.

[Shalcker]

Yeah, nah. There is no baby in the bathwater with Stalin. It's acid you should throw away entirely. The same goes for Lenin and Trotsky.

Yeah, let's throw away women equality and voting, universal education and healthcare, nuclear and space programs. Totally.

Because Stalin was Tyrant! And everything he did is Wrong!

[Deleted]

Because Stalin was Tyrant! And everything he did is Wrong!

Hitler built highways. Still he killed million of people. So did Stalin. Both Stalin and Hitler were mass murderers.

Try to learn from both. See where dictatorship leads to. See that totalitarism and militarism has no good end.

[Shalcker]

Hitler built highways. Still he killed million of people. So did Stalin. Both Stalin and Hitler were mass murderers.

So, are you going to destroy your highways just because Hitler also built them?

...there are plenty of things Stalin did that are worth keeping, and plenty of examples that will be worth repeating given similar situation.

[Deleted]

So, are you going to destroy your highways just because Hitler also built them?

They had been destroyed by the war. We had to rebuilt them all.

Dont you think russia had the chance to rebuilt its society after a nuclear holocaust?

Do you think building a militaristic dictatorship leads to anything else than war?

And do you want to doubt russia turned into being militarist in the last 10 years?

...there are plenty of things Stalin did that are worth keeping, and plenty of examples that will be worth repeating given similar situation.

That doesnt change the fact Stalins regime killed million of people and encamped and killed dissidents.

[Shalcker]

They should, as bashing russia is against the forum rules.

Technically it is. In practice it isn't.

They are helping Putins agenda. I have no idea if its just "fans" of putin organizing web brigades or his very own regime.

You're helping Putin's agenda too by perpetuating image of Western population clueless about Russia.

Not at all. But nice try. You want to pretend every truth just is a point of view and every lie just is another opinion, and every comment just is propaganda. While you know yourself that it isnt the case.

If you cannot bring facts to support your point of view and can only bring mass media instead, it is most likely propaganda.

Try fewer conspiracy theories. They do not really well in discussions like this, where people talk about propaganda.

Well, tell me, how does German propaganda looks like?

I see plenty of American propaganda here, enough of Russian too, but German isn't exactly well represented.

No, actually Putin is the main culprit of the dictatorship he created. Once he is gone russia becomes a multiple entity regime, where multiple people want to become what putin currently is. Based on that this could lead to democracy, as different followers want to get in power.

But there are already multiple people who want to become "what Putin currently is". Like Navalny.

And should he come to power, he'll suppress his opponents exactly like Putin.

[Deleted]

Technically it is. In practice it isn't.

Which is another conspiracy theory.

You're helping Putin's agenda too by perpetuating image of Western population clueless about Russia.

And you arent helping him by denying facts. But at the end propaganda is also made to distract from lies of the dictatorship that uses it.

If you cannot bring facts to support your point of view and can only bring mass media instead, it is most likely propaganda.

Because every mass media produces propaganda?

Another conspiracy theory. And an old one. "Lügenpresse".

Well, tell me, how does German propaganda looks like?

Google for "Joseph Göbbels". You will find analogies to Putins propaganda.

I see plenty of American propaganda here, enough of Russian too, but German isn't exactly well represented.

Yeah, you know, our past.. well, and we learned from our past. If just every society could say that.

But there are already multiple people who want to become "what Putin currently is". Like Navalny.

Yeah, and he gets jailed and is being showered with blue ink. And is being publically denounced.

A typical Putin-dissident.

And should he come to power, he'll suppress his opponents exactly like Putin.

I am happy you agree that Putin suppresses opposition. Finally we agree at the end.

[Shalcker]

Which is another conspiracy theory.

Denying experience of 4+ years of posting on this forum as "conspiracy theory" is quite "alternative thinking".

Because every mass media produces propaganda?

I did add caveat "most likely"; speaking in absolutes is another sign of propaganda, btw.

Google for "Joseph Göbbels". You will find analogies to Putins propaganda.

I'm talking about modern German propaganda.

Yeah, you know, our past.. well, and we learned from our past. If just every society could say that.

But the interesting part is how do you learn what you learned.

Those things differ between various societies a lot.

Yeah, and he gets jailed and is being showered with blue ink. And is being publically denounced.

It's brilliant green, not blue.

It is sold in Russia as antiseptic.

A typical Putin-dissident.

Lots of Putin-dissidents were actually in power before (or even during, like Kasyanov) Putin's reign.

[downnola]

Yeah, let's throw away women equality and voting, universal education and healthcare, nuclear and space programs. Totally.

Because Stalin was Tyrant! And everything he did is Wrong!

You think you can separate those things from the Great Terror, the purges, Order no. 227, the grinding away of millions of human lives in labor camps, and the self-imposed famines? How much better would the quality of Soviet science, education, and healthcare been if Stalin didn't order the arrests or execution of "bourgeois" teachers, engineers, and doctors? Shipping the "kulaks", who actually knew how to farm the land to Siberia really payed off when the famines hit didn't it?

Any policy enacted by Stalin that did any good for the USSR was paid for in blood and human misery. You can't just ignore the evil of a man like Stalin because he gave you Sputnik. I mean, you can if you're willing be an apologist and distort history, make excuses, and flat out lie about what he did.

[Chain Chungus]

Putin and his gang's whole worldview is based on the fascist ramblings of Aleksandr Dugin. They can pretend all they want, but there is no denying that they are pushing a modern day nazi regime. Which is really ironic considering Russia's fight against the nazis in WW2.

This is how nazis work though. Worm their way into their victorious enemy's society and turn them against themselves.

[Haven]

One Western country's view isn't evidence of your little world conspiracy. The USSR's reputation and actions affect the worlds view of it. That's a fact you routinely ignore with your Cold War fueled ramblings.

Polish government has recently accepted a law about demolishing memorials of Soviet era. That mostly touches upon memorials to Soviet soldiers who died liberating Poland from nazis. Not to mention the russophobic insanity that's started in Ukraine three years ago after the coup. Thankfully, it only happens within American sphere of influence; one billion of Chinese's opinion collectively outweighs that.

No, I don't religiously believe that there was only suffering in the Soviet Union. I'm pushing back against your narrative that it wasn't that big of a deal, wasn't massive in scope, and was somehow justified. Huge fucking difference, dude. I'm not attacking your country for it's past, I'm attacking you for trying to praise the worst aspects of it's past.

I'm not praising labor camps, but that shit worked. After the collapse of Soviet Union and a wave of liberal "revelation" orgies, the people got simply fed up with myths about GULag which got more dramatic with each retelling. The truth is, a big deal of prisoners were common thugs, thieves, rapists, and the likes of them.

No, I said it exactly how I wanted to say it: "the rest of the world." You're the one who's been speaking in a U.S. vs Russia "Cold War" like tone. That's your West vs East dichotomy, not mine.

You're projecting. Besides, the idea of blocs is American by origin: first world, second world, etc. I prefer a civilization-based classification: Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Northern American, Latinoamerican, European, African, those are the most prominent ones. And you got pretty much only NA and EU civilizations on your side. Arabic world wants you all gutted and beheaded, Chinese are much closer to Russia than to anyone else, and the rest don't particularly care.

You go on to lecture me about how the winners with "power' determine the "truth," and then turn around and tell me to 'educate" myself with the memoirs of Stalinists? Heh.

Yes, I go on to lecture you about the existence of other points of view. Especially given that I'm talking about actual autobiographies of Nobel prize winners as opposed to a prison folklore compilation.

[Shalcker]

You think you can separate those things from the Great Terror, the purges, Order no. 227, the grinding away of millions of human lives in labor camps, and the self-imposed famines?

You certainly can.

How much better would the quality of Soviet science, education, and healthcare been if Stalin didn't order the arrests or execution of "bourgeois" teachers, engineers, and doctors?

How much? I see no credible way to estimate that. How much did France lose from Republic days of Terror?

Russia at time of Revolution was certainly quite rotten and could shed a lot of cruft.

For all "higher classes" losses you also got to remember all opportunities people from peasant or worker background got. Rather then being confined to their "class" opportunities (concept that was quite popular at the time) they finally could get actual education and use new social lifts to propel them to new heights. Soviet Union was certainly quite egalitarian in this regard.

It is not like each and every of "bourgeois" that didn't flee was executed, and it's not like Soviets didn't flirt with relaxing economic policy during "New Economic Policy (NEP)" either.

Andrei Tupolev (founder of TU planes), for example, came from "nobleman" family (from mother's side) and wasn't even member of the Party till the end.

Sergei Ilyushin (founder of IL planes), on other hand, came from peasant family and was literally illiterate and could only get education after Revolution.

...so, for every nobleman loss there was peasant gain; and Russia had a lot more peasants then nobleman at the time of Revolution.

Shipping the "kulaks", who actually knew how to farm the land to Siberia really payed off when the famines hit didn't it?

It's not like Russia didn't have famines before; and it's not like their knowledge wasn't backward and far from irreplaceable. Soviets were quite fond of hard sciences, being materialistic and all, and while they made some costly mistakes in the end they managed to feed their country and export a lot too - as you see by there being no famines at all past WW2.

Also during Stalin a lot of work was actually done by collective rather then state enterprises - artels, which provided a lot of consumer goods (but not just them - they also did state orders) while not being burdened by state inefficiency. It only went toward total conversion of everything into state enterprises during Khruschev.

Any policy enacted by Stalin that did any good for the USSR was paid for in blood and human misery. You can't just ignore the evil of a man like Stalin because he gave you Sputnik. I mean, you can if you're willing be an apologist of a man like that and distort history, make excuses, and flat out lie about what he did.

The good of Soviet Union is egalitarian society and social dynamics; things that were failing when Soviet Union failed.

[Tackhisis]

the grinding away of millions of human lives in labor camps, and the self-imposed famines?

There was no "millions" in labor camps, in fact there was less people imprisoned than are in the USA at this very moment.

No "self-imposed famines", either. No one repressed peasants in the pre-war Poland and Romania, yet famines happened there with regularity. Kulaks (without the quotes) were illiterate peasants, they knew shit about farming the land. The constant famines were solved by industrialization and agronomy, not by killing people like in USA and stealing their land.

[Blue Minuteman]

Any policy enacted by Stalin that did any good for the USSR was paid for in blood and human misery. You can't just ignore the evil of a man like Stalin because he gave you Sputnik. I mean, you can if you're willing be an apologist and distort history, make excuses, and flat out lie about what he did.

Distorting history is the name of the game for any authoritarian. It is nothing short of Orwellian Doublethink:

"To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself—that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word—doublethink—involved the use of doublethink."

"The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them… To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth."

[Haven]

Distorting history is the name of the game for any authoritarian. It is nothing short of Orwellian Doublethink:

The irony is that Orwell wrote "1984" after his experience of working in BBC