Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Toogoodman]

And this is exactly why the community ruins the game. You people will never change and always feel so attacked.

In fact, you're the problem with the community, the purpose of an MMORPG has ALWAYS been endgame content. Just because you feel satisfied with questing, and whatever else casuals do, doesn't make it our fault for doing the actual content of the game... Why do you think the story always ends in the Mythic raid? its because that's were its supposed to end. Even the game developers in an interview with Sloot last night said "if you don't want to mythic raid, but want to see how the story is supposed to end, watch a youtube video". That's literally a quote for the LEAD DEVELOPER. Making games appeal to the casual audience is literally whats destroying games across all genres, who do you think is still playing the game 6 months after a content patch? the dude who subs for 1-2 months and stop playing until the next update? or the guys farming raids prepping for the next.

[Garybear]

The problem is that the baseline is just 10 i-lvl which is why it becomes skewed effort vs reward wise. Clearing heroic multiple times in the same amount of time you would spend clearing mythic once provides you with more upgrades. This is why I'm saying add a higher chance for WF/TF based on difficulty.

Tiers are 15 ilvs apart, not 10.

[Dharkuul]

The mechanic basically already exists - once you've killed X amount of bosses at a difficulty, missions rewarding that level of loot become available. Extend that to the TF system. On day 1, before raid opens, max TF would be LFR ilvl. Once an individual has killed X Normal bosses, TF can go up to Normal ilvl, etc. Players can receive gear on par with their playing style.

Two additions however:

* If you're doing current raid content, the TF can go +10. e.g. Eligible Heroic raider doing a Heroic kill can get Heroic ilvl +10
* If you're doing content lower than your highest level of eligibility, you can only receive up to that highest level. e.g. Mythic raider doing WQs can TF up to Mythic ilvl. You can luck into gear at your level, making it relevant, but the best gear still comes from doing the highest content as it can TF.

[Heladys]

It does have a cap, and no to what you're really asking.

[Garybear]

In fact, you're the problem with the community, the purpose of an MMORPG has ALWAYS been endgame content. Just because you feel satisfied with questing, and whatever else casuals do, doesn't make it our fault for doing the actual content of the game... Why do you think the story always ends in the Mythic raid? its because that's were its supposed to end. Even the game developers in an interview with Sloot last night said "if you don't want to mythic raid, but want to see how the story is supposed to end, watch a youtube video". That's literally a quote for the LEAD DEVELOPER. Making games appeal to the casual audience is literally whats destroying games across all genres, who do you think is still playing the game 6 months after a content patch? the dude who subs for 1-2 months and stop playing until the next update? or the guys farming raids prepping for the next.

Idk the final fantasy is pretty casual and it is doing quite well atm.

[Tradu]

No, titanforging should be entirely removed, and warforged should go back to the old 6 ilevels with 1 possible upgrade. If it has to stay, it should definitely be capped. But realistically Blizzard and their most important customers(the casuals for whom the issues that WF/TF cause are just as irrelevant as the WF/TF gear itself) don't want that, so it won't happen.

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The cap should be the ilvl of the loot dropped off of last boss (in mythic) from current tier. And don't increase the cap on previous raids to avoid delirious situation like farming for an Arcanocrystal or something.

Arcanocrystal's issue isn't titanforging. It gains less from more ilevels than most other trinkets due to how scaling works. Arcanocrystal's issue is that it's absurdly overbudget at its base ilevel. Titanforging is more of an issue for trinkets like BTI, Whispers(assuming the proc scales decently, which afaik it does), CoF(in the sense that its proc scales with all your other gear rather than ilevel of the trinket, so titanforging in other slots makes CoF better, titanforging CoF itself keeps it similar to other trinkets at that ilevel, meaning you're not giving up anything for that strong proc), Metronome.

[Garybear]

In fact, you're the problem with the community, the purpose of an MMORPG has ALWAYS been endgame content. Just because you feel satisfied with questing, and whatever else casuals do, doesn't make it our fault for doing the actual content of the game... Why do you think the story always ends in the Mythic raid? its because that's were its supposed to end. Even the game developers in an interview with Sloot last night said "if you don't want to mythic raid, but want to see how the story is supposed to end, watch a youtube video". That's literally a quote for the LEAD DEVELOPER. Making games appeal to the casual audience is literally whats destroying games across all genres, who do you think is still playing the game 6 months after a content patch? the dude who subs for 1-2 months and stop playing until the next update? or the guys farming raids prepping for the next.

I'm also no casual, I raid 6-8 hours a week. Titanforging also helps people get more gear so we can hopefully still get our AOTC before the next tier. Not everyone plays this game non-stop to put all the content on farm and then complains they have to farm the content on farm.

[Tradu]

And due to rng and undesirable stats, it has already been that way for a long time.
Good gear from lower tiers has often been better than mediocre gear from a higher one.
The forging system didn't create that situation.

It massively amplifies the issue, however, because it allows the "lower ilevel item" to both have better stats(or trinket effect) and be of equivalent or higher ilevel, making it not even comparable between the 2 items.

[Redblade]

Tiers are 15 ilvs apart, not 10.

Fair enough, doesn't change my point.

[Garybear]

They are not mutually exclusive...



Nothing stopped them before.



You attribute things to "tryhards/elitist people" that they have no hand in designing...lockouts and gating have been around for as long as the game has been online. (And besides, what I propose would actually benefit the "casual plebs" just as much as the next guy.)

Generally the raw difficulty and required hours of playing has locked casuals out of raiding. I have friends that hardly even have the time to do lfr let alone scheduled raiding. Titanforging was also intended on helping struggling guilds still get loot to help them push boss kills. My group is mostly 905+ with some of us well into 910s but because we have some deadweight friends we haven't killed gul'dan heroic yet. It is nice to still be getting upgrades while having fun with friends.

[Tradu]

Let me ask you this: Why did people ever bother with BiS in the first place? It's because once they have it then they no longer feel the need to carry on farming. Once people have BiS, they either stop raiding, which indicates that they didn't really want to for so long in the first place, or they carry on but feel bored. In either, removing the realistic prospect of BiS in every slot solves the problem. If you're only farming because you feel compelled to get BiS, then you can stop earlier. If you want to carry on farming because you like it, then at least there is always the possibility of a reward.

Who the hell stopped raiding because they reached BiS? For the people that could actually reach BiS, gear was not the only reason to raid(or even the primary one), so reaching BiS wouldn't cause them to stop raiding. Reaching BiS just meant you were fully prepared for next tier and didn't have to worry about loot anymore, which was a good feeling. If anything the lack of ability to reach BiS makes me more likely to take a break, because there's absolutely no way I'll reach it, so why bother even trying?

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Generally the raw difficulty and required hours of playing has locked casuals out of raiding. I have friends that hardly even have the time to do lfr let alone scheduled raiding. Titanforging was also intended on helping struggling guilds still get loot to help them push boss kills. My group is mostly 905+ with some of us well into 910s but because we have some deadweight friends we haven't killed gul'dan heroic yet. It is nice to still be getting upgrades while having fun with friends.

If guilds are struggling with bosses even with full BiS from the previous bosses, they need to focus on getting better, not get carried by extra RNG gear. Maybe wait for nerfs or the next tier if you're not good enough.

[Toogoodman]

Idk the final fantasy is pretty casual and it is doing quite well atm.

Still a hardcore scene, with rankings, logs, the works. Every game that has competitive potential will have a competitive scene, that's why we have eSports now. Not only do the people doing it love what theyre doing, but shit tons of people watch them do it. Big streamers for WoW - Sco, Sloot, Xyronic, Cdew, etc... these people have 10s of thousands for viewers combined. This scene exists, it will always exist, and that's just something the casual crowd needs to understand.

Also, i could care less about people having loot equal to mine, good for them. Its a problem, when im now forced to run heroics and normals every week because there is the potential for something i could use dropping for me.

[ComputerNerd]

Yes it should. Tiers of content are less meaningful if you can get the same ilvl gear from lesser shitty forms of content that the bads participate in.

And if they are actively seeking the easier content, that speaks volumes more about them than it does the "bads".
Which is an arrogant assumption anyway.

They are constantly raising barriers to speed up their experience, and to minimise problems.
To make it as easy as possible, and yet the rest of us "below them" are the ones constantly accused of demanding instant gratification and wanting to be handed everything for minimal effort.
Bunch of hypocrites.

It massively amplifies the issue, however, because it allows the "lower ilevel item" to both have better stats(or trinket effect) and be of equivalent or higher ilevel, making it not even comparable between the 2 items.

It was described as if that were a new issue, which it is not.
And it is amplified by their seeking of easier content.
They demand that we have something taken away from us because they don't have the willpower to just avoid it.

[Hctaz]

I think the problem for mythic raiders is that we, as a whole, want to optimize our character as much as humanly possible. The -forged system hinders this endeavor drastically and we don't want that. We want to be goddamn done with our gear because that's what we work for. We are players who optimize everything. We optimize the bosses from heroic so that we can complete them on Mythic. We optimize our damage done, our movement, our healing, our tanking positions, our strategies... everything. We optimize our characters as well but when it comes down to not knowing what we're looking for in a raid then it really sucks. It sucks when you have to replace a piece of gear that is optimal with one that is less optimal but is a higher item level sure the pure stat boost alone makes it better. Like yeah... I have 920 shoulders from a Kara M+. If I wanted optimal gear I would need 920 tier shoulders now... but I don't have those. I have 905s. So I'm stuck being sub optimal not by choice but by random luck and chance. My character is stronger than before but not perfect and I don't like that.

[Grenor]

Yeah but that's the thing, you basically have time to do 2x heroic runs in the same time it takes to clear mythic. And due to the small i-lvl difference base and how you have a higher potential upgrade span on heroic gear mythic is less rewarding. It's backwards that the content that takes the most skill/time has the least benefit in the current system.

Even with 2 times HC i really doubt your chance are better on a 925. There may be a breakpoint, but certainly not as low. And yes it may be possible that there may be times when HC delivers more usable items --> when you have hc of farm, but are struggeling in mythic. But isn't it a good thing to get some support from HC at this point?

[Tradu]

Yes, but not because I care what gear other people have. It muddles character progression, particularly in mythic raiding.

Gear is, of course, just a tool to kill a boss.

It is however, nice to become more powerful after you kill the final boss and then find the rekilling of content get easier. Unfortunately, Gul'dan drops the best trinkets for numerous classes and some high relics, but relics/trinkets from earlier bosses or heroic can titanforge and by the time GD mythic died, I think we'd killed GD hc at least 10 times. Between the kills, bonus rolls (sometimes 3+ on GD a week because rekills in pugs for roll) most people went in to GD mythic in my guild with mythic GD base trinkets and relics. Of course this means that unless the mythic loot, of which there is a large loot table, war-titanforges, it's mostly minor upgrades.

As said, that is the primary objective of the game. It just erodes the sense of character/content progression which used to be very linear. It's why unless you look at speed kills, most bosses have taken quite a while for the average kill speed to improve, because it's taken numerous clears and boss kills to really improve your character and dps, compared to BRF and HFC mythic farming.

Pretty much this. It erodes the reward structure, and it kills off a potential goal for some people: reaching BiS before next tier so they're fully prepared, causing the next tier to essentially be a full reset because everybody goes into it with the same gear, instead of the current situation where the guilds that kill bosses first/get luckiest with loot get ahead and very likely stay ahead because they have more weeks before the next tier to RNG high items.

[Redblade]

Generally the raw difficulty and required hours of playing has locked casuals out of raiding. I have friends that hardly even have the time to do lfr let alone scheduled raiding. Titanforging was also intended on helping struggling guilds still get loot to help them push boss kills. My group is mostly 905+ with some of us well into 910s but because we have some deadweight friends we haven't killed gul'dan heroic yet. It is nice to still be getting upgrades while having fun with friends.

So how would mythic having a higher chance to WF/TF affect you?

Just to give you some perspective here, I'm 914 and I clear mythic and heroic every week. The problem is how much more beneficial the system is the lower your gear level is. At the base of the reward pyramid you're getting lots of rewards hence lots of chances for WF/TF, the higher you go in difficulty the amount of potential rewards drop lower and lower which means less and less chances at WF/TF. Scaling the odds of WF/TF with difficulty would mean a huge improvement for the high end raiders , a minor improvement for the heroic raiders and no change for the super casual.

[Garybear]

Who the hell stopped raiding because they reached BiS? For the people that could actually reach BiS, gear was not the only reason to raid(or even the primary one), so reaching BiS wouldn't cause them to stop raiding. Reaching BiS just meant you were fully prepared for next tier and didn't have to worry about loot anymore, which was a good feeling. If anything the lack of ability to reach BiS makes me more likely to take a break, because there's absolutely no way I'll reach it, so why bother even trying?

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If guilds are struggling with bosses even with full BiS from the previous bosses, they need to focus on getting better, not get carried by extra RNG gear. Maybe wait for nerfs or the next tier if you're not good enough.

Saying we should just quit because we're bad is pretty lame. Yea we could wait but tbh we'd just play some other video game. In pretty much every game i've ever played if you are stuck on a boss or can't beat a level you just go to the previous level and grind for a bit. This is no different. We run normal/EN N and H to help get more chances at upgrades. We want to down gul'dan and that is why we do it. We may not have the cutting edge skill but we have the determination to farm content so we can win.

[Tradu]

And if they are actively seeking the easier content, that speaks volumes more about them than it does the "bads".
Which is an arrogant assumption anyway.

If they actively seek the easy content after they've done the hard content, that just means they're going to the logical extreme of the current system. And really, WF/TF is Blizzard directly trying to make good players do easier content in order to carry worse players, same as why LFR drops all the stuff it does(tier, trinkets, augment runes, legendaries)

[Garybear]

Still a hardcore scene, with rankings, logs, the works. Every game that has competitive potential will have a competitive scene, that's why we have eSports now. Not only do the people doing it love what theyre doing, but shit tons of people watch them do it. Big streamers for WoW - Sco, Sloot, Xyronic, Cdew, etc... these people have 10s of thousands for viewers combined. This scene exists, it will always exist, and that's just something the casual crowd needs to understand.

Also, i could care less about people having loot equal to mine, good for them. Its a problem, when im now forced to run heroics and normals every week because there is the potential for something i could use dropping for me.

You're 'forced' to do content you don't want to do? Just don't do it. It is a game and you're treating it like a job. Maybe high mythic guilds get sponsors or there's money in it so that is a fair reason.