Power Loss in 7.2.5 - Accompanying Boss Nerfs?

[Marrilaife]

It's not rocket science and my post wasn't meant as an insult, so not going to bother reading your novel.

I will never understand why writing a long post is considered some form of offense on these forums, if that's the case they should implement a cap how long a post can be.

But TLDR wasn't insulting you or raging just random musings on the state of guilds atm.

[Raiju]

*Nighthold numbers are balanced around old 54 artifacts
*Nerfed classes with 51 new artifacts are much better than "unnerfed" classes with old 54
*Nerfs where already made for most hard bosses: Etraeus, Elisande, Gul'Dan
*DPS checks are not dps checks anymore (elisande pre 4th ring, Gul'Dan kill pre 5th eye)
What do you want, a GM doing the kill for you? Wake up and kill them this week, next week you will have less DPS -still more than enough-.

In the context of guilds progging on those bosses surely you realize there are people worse than you who blizzard caters to, right?

If what you stated applied, they'd already have the boss died. Fact is there are plenty of guilds progressing in nighthold who were told a while ago they had until the 20th to get through it before tomb came out. Even long before that they were told late june so the 20/21 date was entirely expected.

Now for those guilds, they've effectively lost a week of their progression. Maybe they'll get the kill this week, maybe they'll manage next week in spite of set bonus nerfs (and calling class nerfs largely a wash due to buffed specs) due to the extra practice - but the bosses will still be harder and it will feel shitty.

A long time ago blizzard made a certain hardmode more difficult after a couple guilds already got through it. The resulting exploiting and outcry was only to be expected as this was during the WF race. Why is it any different when we're talking about guild 200 rather than guild 3? The only real reason I'm not too fussed about the poor management of expectations is because it's only a week, personally. It won't affect me regardless but it's pretty shitty on blizzards part for players hoping to utilise that week for a final push.

I mean in general I'm astounded so many in here think that because they've killed mythic gul'dan it's of any relevance. The vast majority of raiders who make up a lot more $$ are going to experience a slight power drop for a week. Maybe some won't notice, maybe some won't care as there's only 1 week of the tier left, maybe some won't raid next week to even experience it, maybe some don't have a relevant set bonus, etc. But it's an oversight rather than intended as some in here would like to imply.

[Saybel]

Well since it's been confirmed at @WarcraftDevs now this thread no longer has a purpose.

Thank you to the people who actually understood the point I made - a lot of people are too dense to actually read what I wrote and assumed I wanted an easy kill, even though all I asked for is parity until the tier ends

And for all you pseudo-elitists out there, guilds come in a spectrum, not a fine line between bad and good. Mine just happens to be on the part of the spectrum where our kill will probably come in the last week.

[Ichifails]

And for all you pseudo-elitists out there, guilds come in a spectrum

Oh don't worry mate, I'm pretty sure you and your guild are part of a spectrum.

[Kazuchika]

TIL being a pseudo elitist means not accepting excuses for not killing a boss with a month worth of attempts with increased throughput from every person in the raid.

[KaPe]

TIL being a pseudo elitist means not accepting excuses for not killing a boss with a month worth of attempts with increased throughput from every person in the raid.

I guess your learning skills need some work then. The "pseudo elitism" thing is about people dismissing complaints about boss getting an indirect buff through class nerfs. Seeing how devs confirmed they will adjust the encounter so it won't get harder, it didn't really matter whether the OP killed M Gul'dan or not. Even on deep farm, I doubt people would enjoy the fight taking longer for no reason.

It's the usual "I see the word nerf, I complain about casuals wanting easy mode, ignoring any point they may have."

[Saybel]

I guess your learning skills need some work then. The "pseudo elitism" thing is about people dismissing complaints about boss getting an indirect buff through class nerfs. Seeing how devs confirmed they will adjust the encounter so it won't get harder, it didn't really matter whether the OP killed M Gul'dan or not. Even on deep farm, I doubt people would enjoy the fight taking longer for no reason.

It's the usual "I see the word nerf, I complain about casuals wanting easy mode, ignoring any point they may have."

People missing the part where I suggested the nerf be across the entire raid and not just on Gul'dan

Doesn't really matter anymore what people consider relevant content, difficult content or not. Blizzard have decided to put a nerf in place and this thread is useless now, if there are any mods around I'd appreciate it if you could close the thread before it gets out of hand.

[anaxie]

So what you're saying is, it is still relevant for that one week between the patch and ToS launch. Thus agreeing with the op, I guess?

at this point I doubt anyone gives a fuck about raid struggles.

not done? Oh well

[Kraineth]

Thank you to the people who actually understood the point I made - a lot of people are too dense to actually read what I wrote and assumed I wanted an easy kill, even though all I asked for is parity until the tier ends

And for all you pseudo-elitists out there, guilds come in a spectrum, not a fine line between bad and good. Mine just happens to be on the part of the spectrum where our kill will probably come in the last week.

Parity? That's rich. You are killing a boss designed pre 7.2 which gave massive power increases across the board, and huge HP buffs. The boss has been effectively nerfed twice already.

Next week brings lots of class tuning, lots of specs going up as well as down. You literally wouldn't be able to tell the difference in DPS unless you stacked every single spec getting nerfs. And even then, all of your wipes are going to be mechanical mistakes or lazy DPS not switching.

The fact that Cutting Edge is still going to be up for grabs when the raid is cross-realm is absolutely hilarious.

[shaunika123]

let's be honest here

if you havent killed guldan yet it's not because of low dps
every dps check on that boss now is totally trivial

and anyway at least as many classes are getting buffed as are getting nerfed so it shouldnt even really be an issue.

even if your guild ends up doing 5% less dps, it shouldnt matter if you do the mechanics properly, and those arent getting harder.

i mean we have to dps stop in p2 nowadays just so he doesnt transition too quickly, so dps shouldnt be a problem.

but as i said, i'd bet your overall dps will go up in 7.2.5(or at the very least stay ~even) unless you're stacking DHs and frost DKs only

[Dom]

Lol, holy shit these forums have gone to hell. OP raised a legitimate concern and was torn to shreds by sweeping generalizations for guilds still progressing. Never mind the fact that clearing mythic NH only became realistic in 7.2 for most mythic guilds, a time where a lot of guilds are dealing with raiders taking time off for finals. Even then, the nerfs are reliant on people doing their artifact power homework. We've had what, 1 month of concordance? It's pretty ignorant to blanket label every guild that isn't 10/10 a bad one.

[Umbrex]

Well since it's been confirmed at [MENTION=658211]Thank you to the people who actually understood the point I made - a lot of people are too dense to actually read what I wrote and assumed I wanted an easy kill, even though all I asked for is parity until the tier ends .

i think most people understood exactly what you meant.

they simply disagreed with your point since the raid has already been nerfed significantly by legit reductions, and rather massively by introducing powerspikes through new traits and concordance, something you have completely ignored.

[Marrilaife]

i think most people understood exactly what you meant.

Nope they didn't. The point is, you do not increase relative difficulty of the content current or past over time, if you reduce player power, you also change the content correspondingly, see stat squish and compensatory "legacy content" invisible buff allowing players to solo old content post squish, bosses were also nerfed or their abilities removed in the past if their old design collided with the "new and improved" class changes, for example removing shear from black temple's illidan in wotlk pre-patch to offset changes to tank classes.

When in 7.0 mythic Archimonde became harder and guilds that facerolled him on farm before the patch started wiping again, he was nerfed overnight. There is just no gain from pissing off players so Blizzard rather errs on the side of overnerfing (I remember the prepatch on wednesday HFC was "a tad bit harder" while on thursday it became a joke).

No one really has any argument to "disagree" with the above, all they have to say is "it's still gonna be relatively easier than pre 7.2" or "you don't deserve the kill anyway nyah nyah nyah" none of these are really relevant to the point, if you nerf player power you nerf the content, that is kinda what players got used to and you don't go backwards on that.

In the same manner as players are used to be able to collect achievements and when they found out they "missed" the achievement in the DK class mount questline they got annoyed and Blizzard removed it, because people expected if there is an achievement, you should always be able to go back and retry it.

The same reason why there was so much outrage about "mobs scaling to ilvl" it wasn't about "players not able to kill quest mobs" but about the philosophy, you don't take away player progression throughout the ladder of "becoming more powerful", so in the end they backed off a lot on it.

Blizzard has no reason to deliberately piss off playerbase, if they didn't plan to adjust the content that would be only because of oversight / lack of resources to deal with it during busy patch period, but since they posted on twitter they have intention of doing so, it means they're aware and can spare the manpower to deal with it.

No one really "loses" anything if the content is nerfed, for people who have it on farm, they spend less time rekilling it, for people who didn't kill it, they can attempt one last ditch effort to push. No one gains anything either from content becoming randomly harder (even if just by tiny bit). I'm yet to see someone saying any argument what's the point of making the content even slightly harder in the last week.

You'd see they were very careful with taking away player power and player progression status, they often put as a reasoning of not nerfing something OP (disc in previous expansions, shadow in EN, guardian druid in NH) that they don't want to take away progress players made while relying on strats utilizing that specific spec.

They did blunder in Legion with changing some bosses post-world first kill while others were progressing on it (Ilgynoth, Star Augur), but that was because after these world first guilds killed the boss Blizzard realized the big fuckup they made with boss tuning (Ilgynoth being zergable in 1 eye phase, Star Augur being able to be done with 1 tank 2 healers), that kind of changes are a last resort though, but the bosses should never have gone live in that state (and Helya shouldn't be able to be bugged / exploited, however not everything always goes as planned).

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

We're all so over-powered at this point in the patch, with Concordance and all, that even a small nerf would only bring us back to where we were a few weeks ago. Players were killing the bosses then, so we got nothing to complain about imho.

[Heladys]

I don't think every progressing guild has the option to recruit sub rogues, they're pretty rare.

They won't be for long.

[KaPe]

We're all so over-powered at this point in the patch, with Concordance and all, that even a small nerf would only bring us back to where we were a few weeks ago. Players were killing the bosses then, so we got nothing to complain about imho.

By the same logic, we can go back to 7.1.5 - players were killing bosses then, so there's nothing to complain about.

[Tradu]

LOL WHAT? Council was one of the easiest fights in the raid, the first wall was Gorefiend then Mannoroth, but again thats 100% irrelivant when so many guilds managed to clear content without a nerf to the end boss which was the hardest boss in the zone by far.

Thogar wasn't hard either lmao, your whole post shows what kind of player you are lol.

They made Council harder with every week for like a month straight, so yeah, it was hard depending on when you got there.

[Halobob87]

T19 will end with the launch of the 7.2.5, so, who cares?

[Maquegyver]

Look all the raid snobs chiming in! So much ego stroking. It is possible to say "no they should not nerf it" without flexing your 10/10M epeen and calling anyone else a scrub. Only adds to the toxic nature of MMO-C.

My feelings are... Should they nerf some of the bosses if there is an aggregate nerf to player power? Yes. Will they? Probably not for one week of content.

[KaPe]

T19 will end with the launch of the 7.2.5, so, who cares?

It will end a week later, once T20 actually releases, so yeah, plenty of people will still care.

Sidenote - all the "don't nerf it!" posts were focused on DPS, what about tank changes? Both Brewmasters and Bears are getting some nerfs, so even solo tanking Scythes might get more annoying. More stress on both tanks and healers, not just dpsers, none of which is really needed for one week.